propylene glycol, and glycerine...... see this, if you havent already.

[paladinx]

"I think I've seen a persons avatar here with like 50 cigs in his mouth."


Maybe thats me? lol. I think I try to hold a very non biased view about E-cigs. You will find most here are very pro ecigs and almost get offended if you say anything that concerns you.

The bottom line is this. Cigarettes have been around since the beginings of this country. There was a time when people even thought cigarettes were healthy, they had doctors recommending brands to smoke. After centuries, the truth about them has come out. Not only has it come out but it has been over exagerated as well.

The bottom line of smoking cigarettes is this. They have a lot of chemicals yes. Most are in such small quantities that they are statistically insignificant. However, the bottom line is that with cigarettes the real danger is the addiction. If you consume a heavy amount of tobacco smoke for many years your risk of getting diseases increases. They are a long term killer.

The electronic cigarette is a brand new technology. With common sense, on the surface, it looks 100000x better than smoking merely because it does not have all the same ingredients tobacco smoke does, Ex. tar etc. But it is important to get past that part. Things do not have to have cancer causing elements to be bad for you. I have made this anology many many times on this forum but usually get ignored.

If I ate 20-40 blocks of cheddar cheese every single day, 7 days a week without fail for 20 to 30 years, Wouldnt you agree that the cheese would probably kill me? Sure there is no tar in cheese no chemicals that will cause cancer, but it still would kill me. After people started getting heart attacks from the cheese, we would find what was causing the damage, and that is the fats..

with the PV, its kind of the same thing. No one here is 100 percent sure of anything. PG is used in a lot of things sure. I like that fact, it is reassuring, but one question remains. What quanties of PG are in these products and how are these products used? Has anyone ever really heated up PG to very hot temperatures and inhaled large amounts of PG into the lungs every single day for 20 years? Did the FDA ever anticipate this kind of use ? Perhaps its harmless, maybe not. But lets try to keep an open mind. Some people here talk like they know more than they really do. Either pro or con. Just keep an open mind. I personally do not want to get my answers because I get sick with something 15 years from now. People who are skeptical or raise questions are fine by me. I think it should and needs to be done. Even if its a waste of time and e-cigs are 99.9 percent healthier than cigs, than thats what we will find out. But saying OHH there totally safe and your wrong, than thats not going to be good.

 

[mel_vin]

Lorikay13, havent talked to my DR yet personally about the device. I showed my chiropractor cause he noticed I didnt smell like smoke anymore. He was more like well you quit, so why bother with that now?

A colleuge at work showed her DR her device and gave him a demo. She is an older lady, been smoking a long time. So the DR was enthused that she hasnt been smoking real cigarettes. He was going to look into it. She is using PG based Cartomizers. He's heard of PG before but that was about it...

Now Im really confused myself on this whole subject. I felt like crap vaping PG so switched to VG. Now it seems when I vape VG, I get short of breath a little while later after Im done vaping. Grrr this is frustrating. I turned to vaping because I seem to always cave after I quit smoking, and instead of going to real cigarettes, I wanted this to go to. Im wondering if this is a cartomizer thing. I find they do have a weird perfumy taste to them...

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

with the PV, its kind of the same thing. No one here is 100 percent sure of anything. PG is used in a lot of things sure. I like that fact, it is reassuring, but one question remains. What quanties of PG are in these products and how are these products used? Has anyone ever really heated up PG to very hot temperatures and inhaled large amounts of PG into the lungs every single day for 20 years? Did the FDA ever anticipate this kind of use ? Perhaps its harmless, maybe not. But lets try to keep an open mind. Some people here talk like they know more than they really do. Either pro or con. Just keep an open mind. I personally do not want to get my answers because I get sick with something 15 years from now. People who are skeptical or raise questions are fine by me. I think it should and needs to be done. Even if its a waste of time and e-cigs are 99.9 percent healthier than cigs, than thats what we will find out. But saying OHH there totally safe and your wrong, than thats not going to be good.

Everything carries risks. I could be struck by a bus by stepping off the curb at the wrong time, I could be smothered by automobile exhaust.

People HAVE been inhaling qtys of PG for a long time - it's the carrier for asthma medication in inhalers. People have been inhaling nicotine, too, for decades....in tobacco. They also inhale it through the Nicotrol inhaler. That leaves the food flavorings. We inhale these, too, in smaller quantities, every time someone bakes something and uses them (any smell you get is actually microscopic particles of whatever it is your smelling - think of that the next time you're in the restroom ).

We're looking at reduced harm.......cutting the risks, not eliminating them. To ELIMINATE all risks, we might as well lock ourselves in our homes, seal them tight, and pump in air.......and even then, contaminants???

Personally, I'll take my risks with a side order of vape, please

 

[Drozd]

I've researched enough and feel that there's more than enough research to call inhalation of vaporized PG safe...

I reject an MSDS for industrial PG that did not base tests on vaporized USP grade PG...

Journal of Pharmacology exerpt:
Examination at autopsy likewise failed to reveal any differences between the animals kept in glycolized air and those living in the ordinary room atmosphere. Extensive histological study of the lungs was made to ascertain whether the glycol had produced any generalized or local irritation. None was found. The kidneys, liver, spleen and bone marrow also were normal.

The results of these experiments in conjunction with the absence of any observed ill effects in patients exposed to both triethylene glycol and propylene glycol vapors for months at a time, provide assurance that air containing these vapors in amounts up to the saturation point is completely harmless.
TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION ? JPET

or the CDC's Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry even that states:
FDA considers an average daily dietary intake of 23 mg/kg of body weight to be safe for persons 2-65 years of age ..combined with "The elimination half-life of propylene glycol is about 4 hours."
weight of PG is about 1mg/ml....so you'd have to vape 23ml per kg of body weight in a 4 hour period to even approach that safe threshold...and that would be if 100% of it were absorbed into your system...I vape maybe 2ml a day...so I'm not even close..
Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM

And I think this is my favorite:
Propylene glycol (PG) is generally believed to be less toxic than ethylene glycol (LaKind et al. 1999). NASA is planning to use PG-based coolant for the Orion crew exploration vehicle, which is part of the Constellation Program to send human explorers back to the moon and onward to Mars and other destinations in the solar system.

The purpose of this document is to review the existing inhalation toxicology literature on PG and develop maximum acceptable air concentrations for 1 h, 24 h, 7 d, 30 d, 180 d, and 1,000 d of potential exposure to vapors of PG.

Something like 16 pages of study and math on PG inhalation and side effects...all looks good.
Spacecraft Maximum Allowable Concentrations for Selected Airborne Contaminants: Volume 5

I find the whole thing somewhat laughable...all these ex smokers that willingly put all sorts of crap through their lungs for years and years...
and now ecigs come along and they're all saying there's not enough or no research it's not proven enough...blah blah blah..
and it's amazing how though it's been documented how rare a true PG allergy is all these people who all of a sudden think they have a sensitivity to PG or think that VG because it has the word vegetable in it is oh so much better for them even though it in all reality is less researched and less tested...
I'll keep on vaping my PG without worry...

 

[cricketgalco]

Has anyone here read the possible side effects of talking Asprin, Anti Depressants, Birth control, Ect. ? If you have...you might think twice before taking any medication, including anything off the drug store shelf. In many cases, medications thought to be safe, were not. Many medications approved by the FDA, have been put out there with grave results for some people including death. One has to wieght the benifits, against the possible side effects. The facts are that not everything is known about any medication, or substance eg VG, PG, for a long as 30 to 40 years of use. We can only make decisions according to our awarness at the time. I feel confident is saying that Vaping is less harmful then cigarette smoking. My choice is to vape, based on my awarness at this time. I don't want to quit smoking, I feel vaping is a better alternative. If I worried about every possible side effect of medications, food's, beverage's, herbs, and vitimin's...I would be a walking mess. At sometime or another just about everything causes cancer........including exposure to Sun's rays. Where would we all be without a Sun? ~ cheer's

 

[StormFinch]

I posted this in another section of the forum. But I would like to see people go to their DR's about this, hear me out:

You take a PG'er and a VG'er and have them go to their perspective DR's. Get some basic blood work done, maybe even chest x-rays. Go back 6 months later and get the same work done and see if any numbers change.

I know there are to many other variables that might make this inconclusive but might be a start...thoughts?

Actually we have a number of forum goers that do just that, sometimes more often. They have asthma, COPD and other lung related problems. some from smoking, some for much longer. So far, each and every one that I have seen post here has improved their lung function, plus their chest films and blood work come back clean.

Just out of curiosity Mel_vin, have you tried greatly increasing your water intake since you started vaping? It seems to me that some people with the symptoms you are reporting from the PG and VG found that the problems were alleviated by drinking more fluids. I know my mouth can start to get a little sore if I haven't been staying hydrated like I should. IIRC, Dr. Robertson, who headed one of the biggest studies on long term vaporized PG exposure also mentioned that he thought the mouth ulcers were from the drying effect that PG can have.

 

[mini_art]

I used asthma inhalers many times a day for over 40 years. They contained the same chemicals as my vape without the flavoring plus some meds.
I dont have to use them now even half as much since I started vaping.

I am living proof they wont kill you. I'll take my vape thanks!

 

[cricketgalco]

I used asthma inhalers many times a day for over 40 years. They contained the same chemicals as my vape without the flavoring plus some meds.
I dont have to use them now even half as much since I started vaping.

I am living proof they wont kill you. I'll take my vape thanks!

That's great news Mini_Art~ Thank you for posting...some of us really need that "living proff" Good point made~

 

[mel_vin]

Well, I upped my water intake from the day I quit anologs. I turned to vaping 1.5 months after stopping smoking, from mild curiosity of it all. (with 0mg NIC of course). Everytime I've gone back to smoking, its always been hangin arround people that still smoke and eventually I always cave. Was hoping to use the e-cig for those times that I would be tempted...

I have a feeling that I just dont like the Cartomizer setups. there have been multiple times that I swear I smell stuff burning and prol inahling some extra crap that clearly make me feel like crap. I've felt crapy with both PG AND VG. (although, not as bad with VG, just a bit Short of breath)

Im putting in an order for an M402 model with PCC and give that a go.

 

[bassnut]

I haven't read all of the posts yet but I got a little impatient.
Checking the Wikipedia on Propylene Glycol yields lots of goodies.

Fer instance:

"Propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid, which is a normal part of the glucose metabolism process and is readily converted to energy.
The oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans. Serious toxicity will occur only at plasma concentrations over 4g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.[8] It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1g/kg of PG. Cases of propylene glycol poisoning are related to either inappropriate intravenous use or accidental ingestion of large quantities by children.[9]
The potential for long-term toxicity is also low. In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects.[10] Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol was classified by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration as "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive."

 

[Tampa2]

1,264 Americans per day die from tobacco. Why isn't the Government stopping those sales? I would much rather vape something that "might" be harmful than to continue smoking something that is "sure" to kill me.

 

[JoeD4]

This link was posted by leaford in another thread:

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jam.2007.0626

It would seem that this "pre-clinical" trial would contradict or even supersede the MSDS?

 

[JoeD4]

1,264 Americans per day die from tobacco. Why isn't the Government stopping those sales? I would much rather vape something that "might" be harmful than to continue smoking something that is "sure" to kill me.

I agree 100%! It's just another thing that convinces me that it's not about the public good so much as the almighty dollar. 8-o

 

[paladinx]

Everything carries risks. I could be struck by a bus by stepping off the curb at the wrong time, I could be smothered by automobile exhaust.

People HAVE been inhaling qtys of PG for a long time - it's the carrier for asthma medication in inhalers. People have been inhaling nicotine, too, for decades....in tobacco. They also inhale it through the Nicotrol inhaler. That leaves the food flavorings. We inhale these, too, in smaller quantities, every time someone bakes something and uses them (any smell you get is actually microscopic particles of whatever it is your smelling - think of that the next time you're in the restroom ).

We're looking at reduced harm.......cutting the risks, not eliminating them. To ELIMINATE all risks, we might as well lock ourselves in our homes, seal them tight, and pump in air.......and even then, contaminants???

Personally, I'll take my risks with a side order of vape, please

I agree with you, everything has risks and this is about common sense harm reduction. But this is a health thread and i guess we should discuss whatever fears/concerns debates about health issues. I think its a good thing.
I mean I always hear about PG in asthma inhalers, my mom has COPD and takes a few different inhalers and I never saw PG in any of them. But that is besides the point. PG is in a lot of things, but the question I would ask is actually how much PG are in these products. How much is in some inhalers. Plus you have to look at usage.

The reason why I think people with concerns or questions should not be ridiculed is because it is all about consumption. We are consuming pure, heated PG and other elements in a very concentrated and steady pace. People who use inhalers are only taking a small amount of medication spaced out throughout the day. We have people here who are sucking on their e-cigs all day long in large quantities. That is the big question as far as im concerned. What are the effects of CONSTANT inhalation of large quantities of PG and whatever else is in the liquid. And no one really knows. It is merely guesses based on comparing apples to oranges.

 

[jeanblackwood]

When I was a kid and we got sick my mom would put glycerin i a warm lemon drink because it cuts flem. My grandmother also used this home remedy which they swore worked and that is known to us as pg usp grade . It is also in snack cakes and thousands of other products.

 

[jeanblackwood]

Also in these studies they are not telling you what grade it is the usp grade has been deemed safe for humane consumption by the FDA believe it or not and is used in most of our soaps and skin care products so if all this is true we are DOOMED anyway so lets go out vaping !!!!!

 

[Dahaiz]

Propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid, which is a normal part of the glucose metabolism process and is readily converted to energy.
The oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans. Serious toxicity will occur only at plasma concentrations over 4g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.[8] It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1g/kg of PG. Cases of propylene glycol poisoning are related to either inappropriate intravenous use or accidental ingestion of large quantities by children.[9]
The potential for long-term toxicity is also low. In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects.[10] Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol was classified by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration as "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive.
Prolonged contact with propylene glycol is essentially non-irritating to the skin. Undiluted propylene glycol is minimally irritating to the eye, and can produce slight transient conjunctivitis (the eye recovers after the exposure is removed). Exposure to mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation. Inhalation of the propylene glycol vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of propylene glycol mists could be irritating to some individuals. Therefore inhalation exposure to mists of these materials should be avoided. Some research has suggested that propylene glycol not be used in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as fogs for theatrical productions or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations.[11]
Propylene glycol does not cause sensitization and it shows no evidence of being a carcinogen or of being genotoxic.[12][13]
There is limited evidence that intravenous injection of propylene glycol can cause adverse responses in a small number of people. A Clinical Journal of Medicine article describes two cases of adult men experiencing psychosis from use of injected phenytoin that contained PG as a solvent. Their symptoms resolved when they were switched to a phenytoin formulation without propylene glycol.

Propylene glycol is harmless to man when swallowed or injected into the veins. It is also harmless to mice who have breathed it for long periods. But medical science is cautious—there was still a remote chance that glycol might accumulate harmfully in the erect human lungs which, unlike those of mice, do not drain themselves. So last June Dr. Robertson began studying the effect of glycol vapor on monkeys imported from the University of Puerto Rico's School of Tropical Medicine. So far, after many months' exposure to the vapor, the monkeys are happy and fatter than ever. Dr. Robertson does not expect mankind to live, like his monkeys, continuously in an atmosphere of glycol vapor; but it should be most valuable in such crowded places as schools and theaters, where most respiratory diseases are picked up.

Propylene glycol is used:

• As a solvent in many pharmaceuticals, including oral, injectable and topical formulations. Notably, diazepam, which is insoluble in water, uses propylene glycol as its solvent in its clinical, injectable form.[5]
• As a humectant food additive, labeled as E number E1520
• As an emulsification agent in Angostura and orange bitters
• As a moisturizer in medicines, cosmetics, food, toothpaste, mouth wash, and tobacco products
• As a carrier in fragrance oils
• As an ingredient in massage oils
• In hand sanitizers, antibacterial lotions, and saline solutions
• In smoke machines to make artificial smoke for use in firefighters' training and theatrical productions
• In electronic cigarettes, it is used to deliver vaporized nicotine
• As a solvent for food colors and flavorings
• As an ingredient, along with wax and gelatin, in the production of paintballs
• As a moisture stabilizer (humectant) for snus (Swedish style snuff).
• As a cooling agent for beer and wine glycol jacketed fermentation tanks
• As a non-toxic antifreeze for winterizing drinking water systems, and in applications where the used antifreeze eventually will be drained into the soil, water, or a septic system.[6]
• As a less-toxic antifreeze in solar water heating systems
• As a solvent used in mixing photographic chemicals, such as film developers
• In cryonics
• As a working fluid in hydraulic presses
• As a coolant in liquid cooling systems
• To regulate humidity in a cigar humidor
• As the killing and preserving agent in pitfall traps, usually used to capture ground beetles
• As an additive to pipe tobacco to prevent dehydration.
• To treat livestock ketosis
• As the main ingredient in deodorant sticks.
• To de-ice aircraft.[7]
• As an ingredient in UV or blacklight tattoo ink

Propylene glycol has properties similar to those of ethylene glycol (monoethylene glycol, or MEG). (Note: Infrequently propylene glycol may also use the acronym MEG, but as an abbreviation of methyl ethyl glycol- the industry standard acronym for propylene glycol is PG or MPG (monopropylene glycol)). The industrial norm is to replace ethylene glycol with propylene glycol when safer properties are desired.

The sum total is ... yes it's an antifreeze. Yes it can be used in medicine. Yes it has been and is currently being studied. Yes it can be harmful in high doses. Yes it has MANY uses!


Is it dangerous to the average vapor? Unless you live in a cloud of the stuff like one of those monkeys my eight ball says no. If you don't trust that then by all means make your own INFORMED decision.

P.S. That requires you to tell the lawmen to let you make that decision based on fact not on what can line their pockets

​

 

[Dahaiz]

As I reply to my own post I realize that I talk to myself too much ...

but to the point of risk and danger. Our physiology is such that our lungs dont drain. Therefore it is important to watch what we put in them. Things that the body can absorb and metabolize through the lungs are few. PG is one of those things. The various chemicals in analog cigs are not. Nor is any other form of combustion particle.

I am not a doctor but I am a nuclear trained mechanic. The primary reason for lung cancer in smokers (to my knowledge) is the buildup of radioactive isotopes in the lungs that decay over time and emit particles which cause DNA mutations with 2 possible outcomes: death of the cell or cell division (resulting in a cancer cell or normal cell)

These radioactive nucleatides (uranium, radon and plutonium are just a few) are common in soil (though in very small quantities) and thereby in/on plant life (tobacco). Inhalation of these particles cannot be reversed but they do have a low chance of matter interaction. Therefore smoking 1 analog or even a million will likely have no effect in this department but it is fact that each inhalation of these particulates increases your risk.

Provided the PG, flavoring and nicotine is pure there is no risk, no buildup, no bad things happening to good people.


just my 2 cents

time will tell.

 

[Mister]

Commercial cigarettes often contain either or both of propylene glycol and glycerol in amounts up to 5% of dry weight, serving as humectants for the tobacco. Many of us were already breathing one or both of these chemicals (quantities varying according to cigarette brand and generally not disclosed by the manufacturer) when we were smoking.

A rough calculation for a 20 cig/day former smoker who now vapes 2ml per day:

Smoking at 4% (assumed) of 1g (typical cigarette tobacco weight) * 20 = .8g of glycerol and/or PG.

2ml = 2g of glycerol and/or PG.

For this ex-smoker vaping delivers about 2.5 * as much of one or both of these chemicals as previously consumed by smoking.

Clearly this is an increase in consumption but it doesn't seem to me to be an alarming one. If PG or glycerol are harmful to us or cause allergic reactions in many people I think this would have been observed in smokers.

Links to a couple of studies relating to PG and glycerol content in cigarettes:
"The Effect of the Humectants Glycerol and Propylene Glycol on Mainstream and Sidestream Smoke Deliveries of Acrolein, Formaldehyde, Acetaldehyde, Acetone and Propionaldehyde"
Toxicologic evaluation of humectants added to ciga... [Inhal Toxicol. 2002] - PubMed result

The first study referenced above notes a correlation to delivery of acrolein. A number of people have pointed out this possibility when vaping VG based juice and I think that this study is reassuring in that regard. Acrolein was observed but not in huge quantities, and since cigarette temperatures are way higher than our attys, it seems almost certain that much less (if any) acrolein being delivered when vaping VG than when smoking at least some brands of cigarettes.

I think the observation that PG and glycerol are used in many cigarettes, in amounts which although less than we vape are in the same ballpark, should dispel any arguments from antis and health organizations who say we're using chemicals with unknown effects. We were already using these chemicals when we smoked.

 

[mel_vin]

Mister, great insight...

Im not overly worried of inhalation of PG, however for some reason it doesnt seem to agree with me (at least in cartomizers. havent tried using it in traditional e-cigs) The extreme thirst and canker sores made it not that enjoyable, none if which I expierence with VG...

Now VG im a little more concerned with, only since its oil based substance, and wonder about longer term effects on inhalation of this oil, and we seem to have more insight long term with PG vs VG. But when it comes down to it, when we were all smoking cigarettes, we didnt put that much thought in inhaling that smoke...

For me, since I did quit smoking and discovered vaping after, i believe it will keep me off smokes for good. One thing I always had trouble getting over was the habitual ritual. Going out for a smoke break, flicking something in my hand...even just blowing a simple smoke "o" ring. Vaping can satify all this, and the beauty is I can have it with or without nic, and at this point, im off of nic. Even smoking a "stogey" after you quit smoking, your always tempted to inhale. Vaping I can and not feel guilty or even get worried of getting "hooked" again. I use me e-cig maybe once a week.

It boils down to ignorance is bliss i think. At the back of everyone's head, we all know smoking is bad and its almost like russian roulette, of wheater it would flat out kill you...but the longer term effects were almost a given for almost anybody minor or major (from wheezing to COPD or worse)