Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[druckle]

It's almost un-coilable in its native state. Springy as hell, sometimes won't even hold its shape around the rod let alone support adjustment. Once made blue it's pretty malleable and adjustable.

I'm not sure if that's a factor of it being softer or not - perhaps? Tony has experimented with this more, I've only tried coiling a non-blue wire once, my first time, and since then I've always pulsed it.

Once blue it can also be used with contact/micro coils - as much because it will actually hold the shape as it also not shorting out, though that might also come from the pulsing, we're not sure (we haven't tried a non-blue contact coil yet; Tony said he couldn't get it to hold together as contact until blue.)

OK...yes...."softer" means less springy as I understand how you are using the term. I've never had any problem coiling the wire I have and getting a stable coil without any heating. It must be that your wire is just a little more "hard drawn" in the as-received state and the wire I happen to be using has less work hardening as I receive it . I didn't realize that I was lucky to have a more user friendly starting condition than others.

Duane

 

[tchavei]

I have a question

If one torches a piece of titanium (gold or blue) and winds the coil afterwards, isn't it possible to crack the insulation layer due to the stress we are putting on the wire as we wind it? This only makes sense if the oxide layer is harder than the metal beneath it but I have no idea.

Druckle?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

I have a question

If one torches a piece of titanium (gold or blue) and winds the coil afterwards, isn't it possible to crack the insulation layer due to the stress we are putting on the wire as we wind it? This only makes sense if the oxide layer is harder than the metal beneath it but I have no idea.

Druckle?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

There might be submicroscopic fissures in the oxide layer after deformation but the oxide is so thin that the strains in it really are extremely small and I don't believe any "cracks" that will form would have any effect at all on the coatings protective or electrical insulation capabilities.

Duane

 

[tchavei]

There might be submicroscopic fissures in the oxide layer after deformation but the oxide is so thin that the strains in it really are extremely small and I don't believe any "cracks" that will form would have any effect at all on the coatings protective or electrical insulation capabilities.

Duane

Great

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[xpen]

Something I've been mumbling over for the last few pages: whatever the color/thickness of the oxide layer, it's still TiO2 right?
So I'm a bit scratching my head as to why we should be worried by the grayish oxide, but not by other colors. Unless it flakes off and gets airborne, of course [emoji4]
The possibility of TiO2 fumes (for want of a better word) being emitted by the oxidised wire should be similar - a fraction of a micron more or less in thickness shouldn't make that big a difference with emissions. If any.
Geez, what's wrong with me today..

 

[awsum140]

My understanding is that the grey color of the oxide indicates maximum thickness of the oxide, which, can easily spall or crack and flake off into the air stream.

So, from what everyone has said so far, maybe it would be an idea to heat to yellow, wind the coil and adjust, then gently torch to blue?

 

[SotosB]

I have a question

If one torches a piece of titanium (gold or blue) and winds the coil afterwards, isn't it possible to crack the insulation layer due to the stress we are putting on the wire as we wind it? This only makes sense if the oxide layer is harder than the metal beneath it but I have no idea.

Druckle?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

That's my concern too. That's why I dont torch my coils. It would be a lot safier If you torch them after you build your coil. I prefer spaced coils so I just clean them with alcohol before I build them. No need to pulse them. Even for hot spots for a microcoil I pulse them after I've finished my built. Just in case...

 

[tchavei]

If I understood correctly, colors besides grey indicate a very thin layer that will stick pretty hard to the surface and shouldn't flake off. Dull grey indicates a much thicker layer and there are no studies of it coming off but I wouldn't be surprised judging by a few pics on the net.

I tried to remove the blue from a titanium wire and the only way I managed was scraping it with steel wire. I'm pretty sure it will hold under normal use.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

My understanding is that the grey color of the oxide indicates maximum thickness of the oxide, which, can easily spall or crack and flake off into the air stream.

So, from what everyone has said so far, maybe it would be an idea to heat to yellow, wind the coil and adjust, then gently torch to blue?

The titanium wire I am using winds fine and holds it's shape without any heating so I don't heat it at all. If the wire you are using is too "springy" and the coil doesn't stay exactly in the shape you prefer then heating it a little can relax some residual stresses and "soften" the wire to help you get the shape or degree of coil contact you want. I don't think there's any other reason to heat a titanium coil. The wire I have works fine as is so I use it as it comes and leave it alone, bright, shiny and well behaved.

 

[xpen]

That was my line of thinking, in fact.. Most of us make non-contact coils anyway, so oxide shouldn't be needed unless a) as a byproduct of 'taming' the wire, or b) to avoid direct contact of the wick with the coil metal. Which, in case of titanium wire, I don't see as a problem either.
But then until I find time for housing my 2 DNA40s, it's just speculation on my side [emoji20]
Semi-off topic: I've heard of people using Ni200 or even titanium wire on mechs.. They apparently like the quick resistance increase with temp to achieve sort of an initial boost of the vape, followed by a mellower vaping. Speak about oxide colors..

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Something I've been mumbling over for the last few pages: whatever the color/thickness of the oxide layer, it's still TiO2 right?
So I'm a bit scratching my head as to why we should be worried by the grayish oxide, but not by other colors. Unless it flakes off and gets airborne, of course [emoji4]
The possibility of TiO2 fumes (for want of a better word) being emitted by the oxidised wire should be similar - a fraction of a micron more or less in thickness shouldn't make that big a difference with emissions. If any.
Geez, what's wrong with me today..

Its complicated. Inner layer is TiO, next Ti2O3 (i think) and then TiO2 accumulates on outside..

 

[tchavei]

The titanium wire I am using winds fine and holds it's shape without any heating so I don't heat it at all. If the wire you are using is too "springy" and the coil doesn't stay exactly in the shape you prefer then heating it a little can relax some residual stresses and "soften" the wire to help you get the shape or degree of coil contact you want. I don't think there's any other reason to heat a titanium coil. The wire I have works fine as is so I use it as it comes and leave it alone, bright, shiny and well behaved.

But... But... What about the BLUE??

BLUE is so beautiful

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

But... But... What about the BLUE??

BLUE is so beautiful

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

diffraction - interference between waves of light scattered from the surface oxide layer, changes as the layer get thicker.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

here you go. I posted this early in the thread but worth another airing (LOL)

'When the titanium is exposed to ambient air at room temperature, a passive oxide film is spontaneously formed on its surface. This passive film is amorphous, very thin (5-10 nm thickness [9]), and composed of three layers [10, 11]: the first layer adjacent to metallic titanium is TiO, the intermediary layer is Ti2O3, and the third layer, which is in contact with the environment, is anatase TiO2. At room temperature, anatase TiO2 is the most important layer in thickness and responsible for the integration between the implant and the human bone when the material is not submitted to a thermal treatment at high temperature. The surface oxide film on titanium formed in the air is so protective that the further oxidation of titanium is prevented in various circumstances and mediums [12].'

 

[druckle]

: I've heard of people using Ni200 or even titanium wire on mechs.. They apparently like the quick resistance increase with temp to achieve sort of an initial boost of the vape, followed by a mellower vaping. Speak about oxide colors..

OMG...say it isn't so!! I can almost hear the batteries exploding!!
Duane

 

[druckle]

But... But... What about the BLUE??

BLUE is so beautiful

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

There's definitely a place for fashionistas in vaping.

Duane

 

[Cmoke]

Semi-off topic: I've heard of people using Ni200 or even titanium wire on mechs.. They apparently like the quick resistance increase with temp to achieve sort of an initial boost of the vape, followed by a mellower vaping. Speak about oxide colors..

OMG...say it isn't so!! I can almost hear the batteries exploding!!
Duane

Why? I know that the topic of this (very very interesting) thread is about titanium wire and safety, but I do not get why you relate titanium coils in mech mods to oxides or exploding batteries.

To be honest I tried it myself a while ago. Just a simple 8 wrap 2.5mm ID contact coil of 0.34mm grade1 Ti (pre-torched to gold). It came out at 0.42 ohm at room temp, but when vaping the coil resistance steeply rises to 0.7 ohm (within a second). As long as you take care that your battery can handle such resistances there is no problem with that (just like with any build on a mech mod).

Any possible health advantage of Ti as discussed in this thread would be as valid for mech mods as they would be for regulated or temp limited mods. The only added risk I could think of is a dry hit on a mech mod, which might cause some additional oxidation of the wire. Don't know.. I guess it needs to be an extremely bad dry hit to get the dull grayish oxide layer in a single draw, I don't think this is possible. Anyway, the atty with Ti coil that I used on a mech mod never gives me a dry hit.

But a very interesting advantage of Ti coils, and that is why I tried it, is that Ti allows for coil resistances that suit both temp limiting devices as well as mech mods. This allows you to swap your atties between devices without rebuilding. My tests worked out quite well. I got a perfect vape on the mech mod and on my SX Mini, with the SX Mini being able to detect a dry wick and prevent scorching it.

 

[druckle]

Why? I know that the topic of this (very very interesting) thread is about titanium wire and safety, but I do not get why you relate titanium coils in mech mods to oxides or exploding batteries.

To be honest I tried it myself a while ago. Just a simple 8 wrap contact coil of 0.34mm grade1 Ti (pre-torched to gold). It came out at 0.42 ohm at room temp, but when vaping the coil resistance steeply rises to 0.7 ohm (within a second). As long as you take care that your battery can handle such resistances there is no problem with that (just like with any build on a mech mod).

Any possible health advantage of Ti as discussed in this thread would be as valid for mech mods as they would be for regulated or temp limited mods. The only added risk I could think of is a dry hit on a mech mod, which might cause some additional oxidation of the wire. Don't know.. I guess it needs to be an extremely bad dry hit to get the dull grayish oxide layer in a single draw, I don't think this is possible. Anyway, the atty with Ti coil that I used on a mech mod never gives me a dry hit.

But a very interesting advantage of Ti coils, and that is why I tried it, is that Ti allows for coil resistances that suit both temp limiting devices as well as mech mods. This allows you to swap your atties between devices without rebuilding. My tests worked out quite well. I got a perfect vape on the mech mod and on my SX Mini, with the SX Mini being able to detect a dry wick and prevent scorching it.

I think you mentioned folks were using nickel wire. My comment was really related to nickel wire. It takes a pretty big/long coil to get to reasonable resistance with nickel so I was thinking folks might "cheat to fit". Personally I'm surprised that anyone would want to go with nickel in a Mech Mod. Maybe I'm totally out of touch with the new trends.

 

[Cmoke]

I think you mentioned folks were using nickel wire. My comment was really related to nickel wire. It takes a pretty big/long coil to get to reasonable resistance with nickel so I was thinking folks might "cheat to fit". Personally I'm surprised that anyone would want to go with nickel in a Mech Mod. Maybe I'm totally out of touch with the new trends.

Yeah with Ni200 it would be a precarious adventure, but Titanium seems to be quite good for building coils on mech mods.

 

[TheBloke]

I could definitely imagine Ti would be a good fit, as long as one was careful to keep the coil juiced at all times. Starting resistances are no lower than many Kanthal coils, and the resistance rise is not vast but enough to give a nice variable wattage curve when voltage is held constant.

A Ti 0.50Ω coil on a 4V battery would be firing at 32W at the start of the vape, then by the time the coil reaches 200°C / 392°F it will be at 0.815Ω and firing at 19W.

Pretty good idea I'd say, for those who like mechs.

Just so long as the coil never goes dry else it will, almost literally, be toast