Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[soulseek]

Oh my god, that Cloud Maker Tech thing looks interesting! Customisable/reprogrammable modding.

Is that why you were asking about coefficients, @soulseek ?

Thanks so much for that info, @druckle !

I'm definitely going to have to have one of those!

No I was actually asking because of a new Temp. Control mod from Dicodes, a german company. They basically give you the ability to enter your temperature coefficient. So, in theory you could use any wire that has an approximate linear dependance (in the temperatures that we're vaping). The problem is that they give you a wrong coefficient for Ti in their manual, even though it was correct for all other wires they suggest and I just wanted to double check that I was correct.

 

[tchavei]

According to the paper provided by duckle, the thermal resistance coefficient seems linear up to 900C and set to 0.0038 (0.00344 is for 99.9% pure titanium)

This raises an interesting question: if titanium has a linear TR curve, why is there only a 2F difference between ni 200 and Ti grade 1 at 212F but over 90F at 400F?

Isn't ni 200 TR curve also linear

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[soulseek]

I think the nickel dependance starts deviating slightly at higher temperatures.
90F is ~ 30 Celsius right? So, if you assume that one of them starts curving upwards slightly then that would explain a 90F difference...

 

[TheBloke]

According to the paper provided by duckle, the thermal resistance coefficient seems linear up to 900C and set to 0.0038 (0.00344 is for 99.9% pure titanium)

This raises an interesting question: if titanium has a linear TR curve, why is there only a 2F difference between ni 200 and Ti grade 1 at 212F but over 90F at 400F?

Isn't ni 200 TR curve also linear

Tony I think you missed my lengthy response to your post a couple of days ago about this?

You mentioned this difference in your tests, and I said I couldn't understand such a difference because, as you just said above, the coefficient should indeed be linear. Then I asked if you could give more details of what your test was when you got these differences

Here's a quote of my post in full - could you give me your thoughts?

PS. I now have my Infinite 50W flask, with Nickel Purity. What I don't yet have is my Titanium, nor any indication of when it might come No update on tracking yet.

Here's a link to my original post

Ah OK, interesting. Is that a test you described in this thread? I'd be very interested to read more details - do you have a link handy, or could tell me a keyword to search for?

I am an absolute newbie to all of this, and indeed physics and maths in general. But my understanding so far was that:

"Besides both materials having a different temperature coefficient, their temp/resistance curve is, most likely, not linear between each other"

cannot be correct. I understood that the temperature coefficient IS the temp/resistance curve. And that it's always linear - it has to be, because it's derived from a formula; in the same way that resistance increase from thickness of material has to be linear.

(EDIT: I might be wording that terribly, an example of me having no knowledge of even intermediate maths: I suppose 'deriving from a formula' doesn't have to mean 'linear' as such, eg if the formula involves squares - what I mean to say is that the same formula is used for both Ti and Nickel, using a different base number, so in both cases the resistance increase is predictable from the same formula in the same way as long as the right coefficient is used.)

So the Ti coefficient of 0.0035 defines one curve, and Nickel's 0.006 defines another. If temp sensing is done using nickel's 0.006 it will be way off using Titanium, but if the right coefficient is used, it should then be accurate - just as accurate as it was with nickel.

For some evidence of this, take a look at a Temperature Coefficient of Resistance calculator, here's an example at HyperPhysics, and another, simpler. The first at HyperPhysics requires you to enter coefficient in the format 59 x 10^ -3 (you enter 59 and -3, they being the values for Nickel), the latter is simpler and I used 0.006 for pure Nickel - there's a table below the second calculator showing some example values - but not Ti, which would be 0.0035 on the second calc and 35 x 10^ -3 on the second.

There's several such calculators on the 'net and I've played with a few. They all work on the same basis - put in the coefficient number, a starting resistance, starting temp, and then either end resistance or end temp, and it will calculate the other for you. These calculators don't ask for what material you're using, they just ask for the coefficient - that is my evidence that, at least for temperature prediction, coefficient is all that's needed to derive a temperature offset from a resistance offset, or a resistance offset from a temperature offset.

I'll say again that I'm absolutely not an expert, and I emphasised should above because I guess there definitely could be other things at work in practice.

For example, perhaps assumptions are made in the TC chips about the heating properties of Nickel, such as "apply 20W and it will increase in temp by X" which don't hold true for Ti. So maybe adjusting the coefficient, if indeed NIckel Purity even does that, will help it sense the right temperature, but won't help it achieve the desired temperature because that's controlled by some other fixed variable that can't be adjusted.

But I am pretty sure that the coefficient itself is simple and directly translatable between Nickel and Titanium, as long as the coefficient number is altered. What I'm not at all certain of is whether the Nickel Purity setting even modifies the coefficient!

I have emailed the Geeco guy to ask him - my question was technical so no great hope of help, but perhaps he'll pass it on to someone who knows. I told him I was getting in to YouTube and was a big poster on ECF, in the hope that this would encourage him to help me to get more publicity for his new mod (Which in fairness, it will - if Nickel Purity does work for Ti, that's going to bring a lot of interest to these new mods that have it.)

I'd be really interested to learn more on the test you did - could you let me know exactly what you did, and/or link me to details?

 

[TheBloke]

No I was actually asking because of a new Temp. Control mod from Dicodes, a german company. They basically give you the ability to enter your temperature coefficient. So, in theory you could use any wire that has an approximate linear dependance (in the temperatures that we're vaping). The problem is that they give you a wrong coefficient for Ti in their manual, even though it was correct for all other wires they suggest and I just wanted to double check that I was correct.

Wow! That's also awesome. Link to mod please?

 

[tchavei]

I think the nickel dependance starts deviating slightly at higher temperatures.
90F is ~ 30 Celsius right? So, if you assume that one of them starts curving upwards slightly then that would explain a 90F difference...

Yes, it's around 32C. I'm vaping at 180C with titanium and around 210C-215C with nickel
By the provided Ti TR graph, it looks rather linear, no exponential curve but we would need to plot the same for ni.

There are some German TR sheets floating on the net but they are inaccurate. At 100C, Ti grade 1 should show around 70c which is wrong because practical experience says it shows 98C-99C

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[tchavei]

Hmm. Now that I think about it, I can't remember if I did the water test before or after refinement. This could change the reading. I'm going to finish this tank and try again.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[tchavei]

Tony I think you missed my lengthy response to your post a couple of days ago about this?

You mentioned this difference in your tests, and I said I couldn't understand such a difference because, as you just said above, the coefficient should indeed be linear. Then I asked if you could give more details of what your test was when you got these differences

Here's a quote of my post in full - could you give me your thoughts?

PS. I now have my Infinite 50W flask, with Nickel Purity. What I don't yet have is my Titanium, nor any indication of when it might come No update on tracking yet.

Here's a link to my original post

Hi. Yeah, I probably did overlook it. Sorry.

Make a ni coil, wick it with rayon, cotton or whatever, set temperature to 200C or 400F. Soak the wick in tap water and fire it up. Watch the screen temperature and it should hover at 212F give or take.

Now repeat it with a titanium coil and in my latest test it hovered around 98-99C which is weird as it should have hovered around 70C unless I screwed up the refinement. I can't remember though but I will repeat the test this afternoon.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[soulseek]

Yes, it's around 32C. I'm vaping at 180C with titanium and around 210C-215C with nickel
By the provided Ti TR graph, it looks rather linear, no exponential curve but we would need to plot the same for ni.

There are some German TR sheets floating on the net but they are inaccurate. At 100C, Ti grade 1 should show around 70c which is wrong because practical experience says it shows 98C-99C

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Ah now I understand your question, I think some other kind bloke answered your question above. If we're talking about devices like SX or DNA40 you will never get accurate results with Ti because they're calibrated for a different temperature coefficient. So even if you set the limiting temperature to be different to account for this it won't help because the coefficients are quite different.

If you want something to relate think of temperature limiting as a mountain. What the chips do is set the maximum height of the mountain. When you're using a different wire you're essentially changing the steepness/slope of the mountain ( assuming you walk at the same speed). In order for you to get the same height for your mountain ( temp limit) your mod needs to be able to distinguish between the 2 wires, which the current chips (yihi + evolv) don't do.

 

[soulseek]

Wow! That's also awesome. Link to mod please?

There's 2 mods the Dicodes 2380 and the Dicodes dani extreme v2.
They're available at various EU retailers but they're very new so not very wide spread yet. If you google the names you'll find one that suits you.

I was actually hoping that someone would have reviewed it by now because I am considering buying it.

 

[tchavei]

Ah now I understand your question, I think some other kind bloke answered your question above. If we're talking about devices like SX or DNA40 you will never get accurate results with Ti because they're calibrated for a different temperature coefficient. So even if you set the limiting temperature to be different to account for this it won't help because the coefficients are quite different.

If you want something to relate think of temperature limiting as a mountain. What the chips do is set the maximum height of the mountain. When you're using a different wire you're essentially changing the steepness/slope of the mountain ( assuming you walk at the same speed). In order for you to get the same height for your mountain ( temp limit) your mod needs to be able to distinguish between the 2 wires, which the current chips (yihi + evolv) don't do.

Yes I know that but what I wanted to do is create a chart or even a Web app that would tell you exactly what temperature you would need to set your Ti build to have a nickel equivalent temperature.

For example, a user likes his juice with nickel at 430F and now decides making a Ti build. If you have a precise relationship chart, he would look up 430F for nickel and read: set your dna 40 at 340F

Problem is that this seems to be working at temperatures around 400F but not at 200/300F and God knows how it works at 500+F

Obviously you can just experiment but that's not very scientific is it?

Wish I had another liquid besides water with a precise boiling point higher than 100C and lower than 200C

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

There's 2 mods the Dicodes 2380 and the Dicodes dani extreme v2.
They're available at various EU retailers but they're very new so not very wide spread yet. If you google the names you'll find one that suits you.

I was actually hoping that someone would have reviewed it by now because I am considering buying it.

Yikes they're expensive And they're tubes. Damn, I don't like tube mods. I might have to wait in the hope they bring out a box with the same chip - or better, make the chip available for modders.

That tech does sound great, though

 

[ndb70]

Hi guys,
this is not strictly Ti related, but since I think most of the knowledgeable people in ECF hover around here, I thought it would be a good spot to discuss this.
I stumbled upon an interesting application note about temperature control on the dicodes site (Application Note for temperature-controlled vaping) and there's a paragraph on page 5 that I can't really wrap my head around: "[...] Due to the warming up of the vaporizer and head, it is advantageous to have a spring element between atomizer and mod, to compensate the danger of changing contact resistances. If neither the mod nor the atomizer has a spring contact, it is better to have the mechanical stop provided by the contact pin and not by the head. In other words electrically it is better to accept a gap between atomizer and head as otherwise the resistance is somewhat undefined."
Now, English is not my first language, and this is most probably translated from German, so a misunderstanding on my side is entirely possible, but:
1) Is this really saying having a spring in the current path is a "nice" thing?
2) What's that "it is better to accept a gap between atomizer and head" part about?

I'm a bit confused and hope someone here will find this interesting enough to chime in with his/her own interpretation...

Thanks,
Andrea.

 

[awsum140]

I think what they mean is to have a spring loaded center pin contact or an adjustable, fixed, contact like a Mini Invader to maintain the physical integrity of the connection between the mod and atomizer.

 

[dems86]

There's 2 mods the Dicodes 2380 and the Dicodes dani extreme v2.
They're available at various EU retailers but they're very new so not very wide spread yet. If you google the names you'll find one that suits you.

I was actually hoping that someone would have reviewed it by now because I am considering buying it.

Dicodes 2380 is scheduled to be delivered today, I don't have any Ti wire to test its TC Ti settings out on though (yet). I'm also curious how well their own wire will work (I believe it comes with a sample of their NiFe30 wire).

Either way, I'll be more than happy to snap some pics and give first impressions

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Card Carrying Member/Co-Founder

 

[TheBloke]

Wow that is interesting!

Yes it's definitely saying that a spring loaded 510 is preferable. Which should mean that most mods are covered, because most mods have a spring loaded 510. However, most attys do not have a spring loaded 510 (very very few do, in fact? Kayfun 4, can't think of many others).

So do they mean one spring is enough, or both mod and atty should have one?

Now this second part, about a gap - I think they're saying that it's better that your atty is not flush with the mod - you know how some attys, especially on mods without spring loaded 510, stick up a little out of the 510? There is a clear gap visible under the atty, between atty and mod. I think they're saying that is good?

And I guess what they're talking about is the temperature causing thermal expansion on the metal in the contact path. The mod heats up, the atty heats up (a lot more), and so the metal connections also heat up - this perhaps causes the connection that was solid at the start of firing to become less solid. So they say a spring is better, because it probably soaks up some of that expansion in the metals? And a gap is similarly good, because it limits the amount of thermal transfer between atty and mod?

I'm just guessing at a lot of this, but my above assumptions seem consistent with the advice they give.

Wow I need to read more about this and ask them some questions - very interesting! Thanks so much @ndb70 for highlighting this.

It also makes me think that these Dioces guys are good resources for TC info - I mean, when have we ever heard Evolv or Yihi giving such info? Frankly, when have Evolv or Yihi given any such info? Evolv basically spoke through pbusardo, in very general/vague terms. Yihi are in a sense worse, needlessly obfuscating matters with meaningless 'Joules' and giving little to no other info.

But these Dioces guys seem to be sharing real, practical knowledge and advice - at least on the basis of this one PDF!

 

[dems86]

Speaking of spring loaded and TC...the Dicodes Extreme 2 still retains the solid 510 pin from their original models, only the 2380 cones with a new spring loaded 510.

The Extreme v2 still does the temp control though.

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Card Carrying Member/Co-Founder

 

[awsum140]

I don't think the heat-up would be the problem, the cool down might "weaken" the connections as the metals contract as they cool. Given that center pins on mods can be anything from stainless to brass and the center pins on tanks anything from copper to stainless, the expansion/contraction rates can get kind of messy. But give the relatively tiny sizes involved it really shouldn't be that much of a problem IF the tank is properly attached to the mod in the first place. I guess the major determining factor is the sensitivity of the chipset and how often it reads the coil resistance.

 

[TheBloke]

Oh my god I need this mod. You can configure everything. But £230! And a tube! Christ, what can I sell?

Dicodes 2380 manual - it's a f'ing work of art! An actual, structured, planned, and fully documented menu! Only main thing missing is memory functions. But there's so much other amazing stuff, jeez. Actually configure how much it drains your batteries, down to 2.9V if you want! Configure the wattage steps when you go up/down. Temperature coefficient, with suggested values for Ni200, Ti, Stainless Steel, and Tungsten! More, more, more!

Only thing I can't see is where are the buttons?

 

[dems86]

Oh my god I need this mod. You can configure everything. But £230! And a tube! Christ, what can I sell?

Dicodes 2380 manual - it's a f'ing work of art! An actual, structured, planned, and fully documented menu! Only main thing missing is memory functions. But there's so much other amazing stuff, jeez. Actually configure how much it drains your batteries, down to 2.9V if you want! Configure the wattage steps when you go up/down. Temperature coefficient, with suggested values for Ni200, Ti, Stainless Steel, and Tungsten! More, more, more!

Only thing I can't see is where are the buttons?

It's a single button mod. The menu is fantastic with a single button though. I have a Dicodes Telegonos (17mm) and its so easy working the menu, and you can set up EVERYTHING!!!

The display is completely new on the 2380 (and other new models). The old ones were like two digit alarm clocks, abs while they work great, the new one is much nicer and gives you a lot more information.



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Card Carrying Member/Co-Founder