Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[Mactavish]

I just received 105' of Ukmanen 26 ga Ti grade 1. Using a precision digital caliper I am reading .42 mm which is a little higher than what SE says 26 ga should be .405 mm.

For a reference:
25 ga - .455
26 ga - .405
27ga - .361

So the Ukmanen 26 ga Ti is a little over 96% accurate being slightly on the thicker side. I would think this is good enough for government work, no?

This is from the Rio Grande site, but I'd bet it applies to most vendor wire:

"please note: We strive to measure quantities ordered as closely as possible; however, due to manufacturing tolerances at the mill, please allow for a ±10% variance when ordering."

 

[Mactavish]

I wrote a lengthy post a few pages back about my troubles with titanium.

I had a decent 24g dual coil running last night measuring at .1 It was working ok but I was not getting any flavor, plenty of vapor but hardly any flavor with a metal undertone.

I decided to wrap a clapton 24g ti core wrapped in 30g KA. I get the same thing, plenty of vapor serious muted flavor, mostly cotton and metal undertone. I must be the only one struggling so bad with titanium, I don't know where else to turn. I think I am going to just stick with nickel as I get great flavor from that.

Is this a problem with my device settings? All I've done is download the csv from wire wizard and apply it to a profile on my dna 200.

Using unkamen, no noticeable hot spots, no burnt taste just cotton and metal.

Thanks!

I've never tasted any metal, but I do have to vape a bit to break in the cotton before I get full flavor. Try a different atty, maybe the metal taste is coming from that?

 

[JimScotty0]

I wrote a lengthy post a few pages back about my troubles with titanium.

I had a decent 24g dual coil running last night measuring at .1 It was working ok but I was not getting any flavor, plenty of vapor but hardly any flavor with a metal undertone.

I decided to wrap a clapton 24g ti core wrapped in 30g KA. I get the same thing, plenty of vapor serious muted flavor, mostly cotton and metal undertone. I must be the only one struggling so bad with titanium, I don't know where else to turn. I think I am going to just stick with nickel as I get great flavor from that.

Is this a problem with my device settings? All I've done is download the csv from wire wizard and apply it to a profile on my dna 200.

Using unkamen, no noticeable hot spots, no burnt taste just cotton and metal.

Thanks!

My DNA 200 has not arrived yet, but I have been using Ti Gr1 almost exclusively for the last 4 months or more on the SXM and I am loving it after using Ni200 for the previous few months. I do use the SXM in their Ti mode and do find it better than just using the TCR values for Ti. I am not sure why, but it just seems to work better for me. My Ti builds have been mostly 2mm or 2.5mm, and rarely 3.0mm. Lately I am using more 2mm so they fit easily on my Crius tanks.

Sometimes I use 24ga Ti, 26ga Ti, or twisted 28ga Ti, as well as other combos when I get bored or in the experimental mood such as when I twist Ti with Ni200 or with Invar 36. I am usually at 7.5 wraps on 2mm using dual coils which seems to be my norm these days. I only do spaced coils and don't pulse them before wicking. I tried pulsing but didn't notice much difference to me.

Flavor is very good and vapor production is also very good. I find that the real art with flavor is all in the wicking and not so much with the wire. My goto wick has been Pima cotton and sometimes Cotton Bacon v2 which also works well for me.

The way I find works best is to have the wick be able to easily slip back and forth within the coil and enough to get reach of the juice well, but not too much or else it will be starved of juice.

Another important factor for me with Ti has been to lock in the resistance accurately after ensuring that all mechanical factors in the build are solid.

 

[druckle]

I wrote a lengthy post a few pages back about my troubles with titanium.

I had a decent 24g dual coil running last night measuring at .1 It was working ok but I was not getting any flavor, plenty of vapor but hardly any flavor with a metal undertone.

I decided to wrap a clapton 24g ti core wrapped in 30g KA. I get the same thing, plenty of vapor serious muted flavor, mostly cotton and metal undertone. I must be the only one struggling so bad with titanium, I don't know where else to turn. I think I am going to just stick with nickel as I get great flavor from that.

Is this a problem with my device settings? All I've done is download the csv from wire wizard and apply it to a profile on my dna 200.

Using unkamen, no noticeable hot spots, no burnt taste just cotton and metal.

Thanks!

Personally I have never found flavor to be a matter of the wire chemistry with common wires we use for vaping. I HAVE found it to be a matter of the wicking material, the way I wick, the wire diameter/number of coils etc. and the settings of my device. Wire chemistry of course can affect the flavor in the sense that rate of heating, heat capacity etc. change with wire chemistry but these things can be overcome with device settings on a more sophisticated controlled device such as the DNA 200.

I don't know what equipment you are using but I think it makes sense to use the wire and setup that works for you unless you have a special problem such as a nickel allergy.

I suspect that if you looked at details other than the chemistry of the wire you will find what your problems are with flavor.

Duane

 

[Rockwell222]

When doing Ti claptons with kanthal o you feel it affects the flavor at all? I've got some 24g from unkamen working in my velocity but i find the flavor lacking. Best flavor i've had is from ni200 claptons 28 core wrapped with 30g all nickel. I've never done a TC clapton with kanthal, wondering if the kanthal mutes the flavor since most agree Ti has a good clean flavor when used alone. Thinking of wrapping one today.

Thanks

If I was you I would go with a higher gauge core. I usually stick to 26 Clapton or 28 fused Clapton. And I try to use 34 to 40 as my wrap, sometimes I use 32 but very rarely. I have also used ti as the wrap but found very little change in flavor from kanthal. I always use lightning vapes kanthal and I just run it through a napkin and I get very little residual oil. Hope it goes well for you I've been in love with these advanced coils with ti, I didn't think it would work especially the fused claptons and so on. Tonight I'm gonna try a cat track coil with 8 pieces of 32g ti for the core and 32ka1 wrap. I think it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Rockwell222]

Way back in this thread I asked the same question, below was the response, and I've almost exclusively been using 24 gauge since. Easy to build if the brand wire is a little softer then some others, easy to pulse with a custom TCR on a DNA200, for checking build, and later for cleaning before rewicking. Though I thought I was being careful pulsing my 26 gauge, I've had it catch fire twice, just knocked it out on the floor, but it scared me at first. 24 gauge is much more hearty! Never had any issues with it.

CIGATRON's Ti Build:

"24g Ti-G1, 6 wraps spaced (wound on a 6-32 machine screw), 2.78mm ID, .20 ohm, wicked heavy with kgd.

26g with the same coil profile would be around .3 ohms, 28g around .4 ohms. Either of these should work fine and will be more accurate for tc because of their higher res than 24g however neither has as much surface area as 24g.

The next time I order Ti I'll get 26g to try out. It has a higher heat flux value than 24g without losing as much surface area as 28g. Might be a good compromise."

Are you sure it's not the liquid or gunk flaming up because I've tried to get 26 to flame up and I put it on my DNA 200 and it wouldn't happen. It just got bright white and that's it. I know I've had gunk and liquid ignite and sometimes being stubborn and not going out with blowing on it so I had to really shake it til the flame blew out or it ran out of fuel (liquid).

 

[WharfRat1976]

The way I understand it and I certainly could be wrong is that Ti02 forms at room temperature. So it is on the wire when we get it. It is so tightly bonded to the Ti "core" though that it takes super high heat to release it. This would be the abuse Rockwell is talking about. As long as you don't heat it up too high it stays bonded tightly.

If you get a hot leg or make a mistake of some kind you may accidentally inhale some someday. When I found out that Ti02 is everywhere and is sold as "food grade" I personally decided the risk just is not what many portray it to be. I will recoil if I make a mistake and vape on.

20 watts or less will form O2 on Ti wire. See here.

 

[druckle]

20 watts or less will form O2 on Ti wire. See here.

Sure will on a dry coil,
Wash the oxide off and vape away or change the coil if you want to.
I just checked outside and the sky isn't falling as the some of the true believers seem to think.

Duane

 

[Rockwell222]

How long did you fire that for? Because with several different wires that I've tried and pulsed at higher wattages they only form a slight amount of white ash. Where did you get your wire?

 

[Mactavish]

Are you sure it's not the liquid or gunk flaming up because I've tried to get 26 to flame up and I put it on my DNA 200 and it wouldn't happen. It just got bright white and that's it. I know I've had gunk and liquid ignite and sometimes being stubborn and not going out with blowing on it so I had to really shake it til the flame blew out or it ran out of fuel (liquid).

Yeah, bright white on a clean new coil, on 26, as close to FIRE as I want to see. Most of my STM builds love 24 gauge so I stuck with that. I had a fairly low wattage pulse, but I kept doing it, my error, but the thin wire can ignite.

 

[Flaskmaster]

Phil Busardo just posted this on Facebook. Nothing we don't already know/assume, but good to have it out in the open.

For those interested from the thread below regarding TI safety, the following is a statement from Pedro Carvalho of Caravela Mods he's allowing me to share.

Pedro holds a PhD in material science. He's also a postdoctoral researcher in material science and has more than 20 scientific peer reviewed publications.

Thanks Pedro!

And even though I'm sharing this, I'll tell you what I always do... IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE USING IT... DON'T USE IT!!

This is not designed to condone the use of the material, just to pass some information along.

1) Do everything with vaping at your own risk!!
2) The safest way to vape is to not vape at all... just don't smoke either!!

"Without performing any scientific research on this issue and based only on my experience with titanium and titanium dioxide coatings, I would say that is reasonable "safe" as long as the titanium wire is shiny!

Even with heat treatment (dry burns) the naturally occurring titanium dioxide growth should be very thin and have high adhesion to titanium wire.

What I recommend is to dry burn (unless the process has already been done by the wire manufacturer) until the titanium wire remains shiny! If it’s shiny the oxide layer is thin and should present high adhesion to titanium wire.

Even at room temperature all titanium produces a "protection” layer of titanium dioxide, however, I believe the adhesion to the metal will protect the vaper.

Although I have no experience with NI200 wire, based on my personal experience, I would choose TI wire over NI200 wire.

Please note however, that Titanium dioxide is classified as carcinogenic 2, it means that can be carcinogenic to humans. So please do use it at your own risk.

I plan on doing a study of these wires and all wires used in vaping in the near future and look forward to sharing the results with you.”​

What I gather from this is that high temps will form a whole bunch more Ti02 than what is naturally occurring really fast. When there is that much it becomes flaky and can separate and be inhaled. That is what I want to avoid even though the stuff is in all kinds of stuff we eat.

(Subsequent posts after the one quoted here states that a blue colored wire is fine too.)

 

[tchavei]

TiO2 is always present. The important part here is it's adhesion to the coil. From shiny to dark blue/purple, the layer appears to be stable and strongly adherent to the Ti surface (it isn't easy to remove). Once the layer is thick enough (dull grey/yellowish) it will delaminate easily and might be inhaled (which even then isn't proved to be hazardous).

To be 99.99% safe, don't dry burn Ti beyond a blue layer.

It's really a non issue for me.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

TiO2 is always present. The important part here is it's adhesion to the coil. From shiny to dark blue/purple, the layer appears to be stable and strongly adherent to the Ti surface (it isn't easy to remove). Once the layer is thick enough (dull grey/yellowish) it will delaminate easily and might be inhaled (which even then isn't proved to be hazardous).

To be 99.99% safe, don't dry burn Ti beyond a blue layer.

It's really a non issue for me.

I think the layers that impart the colour are rather TiO and Ti2O3 but I may be wrong....

 

[jj6404]

You know way back in this thread The Bloke had a list of the different wires with their actual measurements I would like to find a shiny one that is a true 26awg. The Crazy Wire is great and I notice that after some use like 2-3 tanks it gets better but it is not a true 26awg and does not make a tight fit on the STM between the screw and the wall in the rba deck the Unk does and makes it much easier because it doesn't slip out when you tighten the screw. I've never tried the Riogrande but I see the smallest it comes in is 24awg. Might try the Zivipf is it a true 26awg, I don't mind wiping a little graphite off.

How much is the Ti on this Crazy Wire site? I saw the prices on Unkamen and found them to be about the same as Lightning Vapes. I don't get what the craze is about this Unkamen stuff. Lightning Vapes sells Ti grade 1, they are a trusted wire seller, and they have a 15% coupon code that always works. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this before in this thread. How come no one gets their Ti from Lightning Vapes like me?? Is there something I'm missing?

My DNA 200 has not arrived yet, but I have been using Ti Gr1 almost exclusively for the last 4 months or more on the SXM and I am loving it after using Ni200 for the previous few months. I do use the SXM in their Ti mode and do find it better than just using the TCR values for Ti. I am not sure why, but it just seems to work better for me. My Ti builds have been mostly 2mm or 2.5mm, and rarely 3.0mm. Lately I am using more 2mm so they fit easily on my Crius tanks.

What is an SXM?

If I was you I would go with a higher gauge core. I usually stick to 26 Clapton or 28 fused Clapton. And I try to use 34 to 40 as my wrap, sometimes I use 32 but very rarely. I have also used ti as the wrap but found very little change in flavor from kanthal. I always use lightning vapes kanthal and I just run it through a napkin and I get very little residual oil. Hope it goes well for you I've been in love with these advanced coils with ti, I didn't think it would work especially the fused claptons and so on. Tonight I'm gonna try a cat track coil with 8 pieces of 32g ti for the core and 32ka1 wrap. I think it will be interesting to see what happens.

The last SS316L core/KA1 wrap fused Clapton I built, I held the wrap wire in my palm with a paper towel soaked in 90% isopropyl alcohol. So I just ran the 36g KA1 right off the spool through the alcohol-soaked paper towel and onto my core wires.

 

[jj6404]

TiO2 is always present. The important part here is it's adhesion to the coil. From shiny to dark blue/purple, the layer appears to be stable and strongly adherent to the Ti surface (it isn't easy to remove). Once the layer is thick enough (dull grey/yellowish) it will delaminate easily and might be inhaled (which even then isn't proved to be hazardous).

To be 99.99% safe, don't dry burn Ti beyond a blue layer.

It's really a non issue for me.

Ok, so about this shiny = safe stuff.. I only get my Titanium from Lightning Vapes. It's listed as Ti Surgical Grade 1. It always comes on the spool dull and grey. I read that the appearance of the Ti just has to do with the manufacturing and polishing process. Is it possible that the Lightning Vapes Ti comes with this unstable Ti oxide layer already present on the wire for some reason?? I rarely dry-burn my Ti builds but when I do they immediately go to a yellow and then blue stage. I never see a shiny metallic or silver stage in there...

 

[druckle]

I think the layers that impart the colour are rather TiO and Ti2O3 but I may be wrong....

There's always a variation in oxygen content with all of the oxide species being present depending on how many millimicrons deep one measures. The oxygen diffusion rate and the solubility of oxygen in metallic titanium are such that eventually as one goes deeper into the substrate there will be a noticeable tendency for the alpha (hexagonal close packed crystal structure) to be more and more stabilized and somewhat more brittle than the titanium metal with low oxygen content with no oxide as such present at all. This is all metallurgical gobbldygook for non metallurgists but the bottom line is that nothing bad happens with titanium in normal vaping and it provides an excellent totally safe vape in my opinion and the opinion of many others who use it regularly.

Duane

 

[Nimaz]

I've been twisting this Ti coils for a little while now and I thought some of my observations are worth mentioning. I am using 26g wires, ~10 tight wraps 2.5mm inner diameter on Ni TC controlled device. The indicated temperature are in Celsius, corrected by the T.target=2xTset - 40 formula. I look closely to the coil using a magnifier.

- On a first build, it happens that one or few wraps are heating more than the rest of the coil when powered dry (these wraps blow bright orange). This may lead to the formation of the TiO2 white layers on these wraps specifically. If I stop powering soon enough before TiO2 buildup, and readjust the coil, it behaves as it supposed to by blowing progressively dull orange from center to sides. No visible TiO2 formation. This also happens in TC mod at low temp setting. I haven't put my self to understand the causes, but I suppose a defect in the coil continuity build.

- When I heat dry a properly functioning Ti coil it starts briefly blowing dull orange in dark at 500 oC before the temp control takes over and power off the coil. No observable TiO2 formation.

- At max temp. setting or 590 oC, the coil briefly blows a brighter orange than above and the temperature control takes over. Again no visible TiO2.

- If I lock a hot Ti coil at a resistance higher than it is at room temperature, the temperature of the coil is much higher than the targeted temperature during normal use. This is expected. Because mistakes happen, TiO2 may form at a lower temperature setting in this scenario which impose great attention in locking the resistance at room temperature. This is certainly a lower risk in using Ti controlled devices rather than only Ni-controlled device to run Ti coils.

-When I heat clean a dirty coil, the carbon like deposit on the coil goes away to leave a clean coil without evidence of TiO2. Nevertheless, I brush and rinse the coil before further use.

My 2 cents conclusions:
Temperature oxidation of Ti to TiO2 coil seem to happened at temperatures much higher than the ones used during vaping operation. Not properly wrapped coils may also lead to uneven distribution of the heat and partial oxidation of the coil. I don't know the frequency of occurrence but this issue seems easy to avoid by proper testing and adjustments of the coil before vaping. It's important to assure that the coil is locked at room temperature but not when it's hot especially when using a Ni only controlled device. Using Ti regulated mod add a good safety feature.

 

[2legsshrt]

I just received 105' of Ukmanen 26 ga Ti grade 1. Using a precision digital caliper I am reading .42 mm which is a little higher than what SE says 26 ga should be .405 mm.

For a reference:
25 ga - .455
26 ga - .405
27ga - .361

So the Ukmanen 26 ga Ti is a little over 96% accurate being slightly on the thicker side. I would think this is good enough for government work, no?

That would explain it then. I bet the 24 CW would work good. A little less resistance but the SX will make up for that. For some reason I don't know why but after a couple of tanks on the CW it just seems to perform better then the Unk. Might just be me OCD but I really like the way it vapes, not at first it is a little anemic but it just keeps getting better. 105' ready for vapocolypse.

 

[cigatron]

Yeah, bright white on a clean new coil, on 26, as close to FIRE as I want to see. Most of my STM builds love 24 gauge so I stuck with that. I had a fairly low wattage pulse, but I kept doing it, my error, but the thin wire can ignite.

Hey Mac, all I run on my STminis is 24g x 6 2.75mm spaced Ti coils. They DO love 24g. What kind of wattage are you able to vape at? I'm knockn down 35w continuous.

 

[JimScotty0]

What is an SXM?

Yihi SX-Mini using 350J chipset.