To all my ecf brothers and sisters.....please read.

[ricks]

You may doubt, but it had happened.

Prove it... I cant see 5 volts melting a cart.

 

[Katya]

I'm sorry, but I don't feel like I can prove anything to you...you ignore evidence presented to you and pretty much accuse me of lying. I show you a picture of a fully saturated cartomizer and you tell me it is dry and abused. I'm really sorry, but I'm not interested anymore. But I suggest that you read more and see what can happen. Just do a search.

You also completely ignored my previous post about a battery failure... Care to comment?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-battery-failure-imr-18650-a.html#post3265928

BTW, eliquid is flammable too, under right (or wrong) conditions.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...1-etc-filler-type-cartos-480.html#post3302206

I'm not posting this to scare anybody, but to make fellow users aware of possible, even if remote, dangers. E-cigs are safe, but things can happen. Please be careful.

Happy vaping.

 

[Linden]

-AHEM-
Order in the court!
The only thing melting and/or burning in this conversation is our collective intellects.

 

[WAC_Vet]

Prove it... I cant see 5 volts melting a cart.

It's not the voltage that would be the concern, it's the resistance. Resistance is what causes the heat. It's very possible that those cartomizers were defective. If a thinner wire was used, the resistance would increase. Was the resistance checked on these prior to use, after use, prior to opening? There are many variables that have to be considered...wicking material used, construction of heating element, resistance, and even the liquid used (is it "pure", are there contaminates, was something added). Also, one has to consider if the battery or switch was defective.

 

[Katya]

Here's just one cautionary tale.

Again, not to frighten anybody--just make us all aware. I've been vaping for a year and a half and have zero desire to stop. But I keep my eyes open. And I read. And learn from my fellow vapers.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...3718-melted-2-plastic-cartos.html#post3606293

Thanks, Hellen!

 

[ricks]

I do think that these things might happen. Some things do come defective. I think these issues are extremely rare and we should not worry about it.

 

[rolandpibb]

It's not the voltage that would be the concern, it's the resistance. Resistance is what causes the heat. It's very possible that those cartomizers were defective. If a thinner wire was used, the resistance would increase. Was the resistance checked on these prior to use, after use, prior to opening? There are many variables that have to be considered...wicking material used, construction of heating element, resistance, and even the liquid used (is it "pure", are there contaminates, was something added). Also, one has to consider if the battery or switch was defective.

I once had a bauway LR Carto that lit up bright orange inside and instantly melted the filler. Scared the vape out of me.

 

[WAC_Vet]

No, not worry about it, but be aware of it. Look at the computers that caused fires! I happen to have had one of the HP's that was involved in the NVIDIA class action suit. You would not believe how hot the GPU would make the motherboard, which could be felt through the laptop itself.

This thread was started by WyattDerp, concerning the bans we impose on non-vape friendly establishments. Going with that, I honestly feel we have to make ourselves known, educate others concerning our personal vaporizers, and STOP calling them ecigs! They are not cigarettes, we do not smoke, and we need to get ourselves into a different mind-frame, if we expect others to see them as something other than cigarettes that use batteries! There are many of us that have been able to cut out the nicotine in their juice, so it would not be a nicotine delivery system for them, and we do not need non-vapers thinking that everyone is using a PV for nicotine addiction.

We need to explain how it is financially advantageous for a business to be vape friendly. That means educating those businesses concerning the benefits of vaping. A happy vaper is a happy customer. A vaper's vapor does not stink, will not yellow anything with tar/nicotine, we do not blow plumes of vapor in people's faces, we don't leave messes from our PV, etc. Forcing a vaper to stand outside in the cold, rain/snow, or heat, could cause some of us serious harm. Some of us suffer from COPD and other respiratory disorders, so forcing us to vape around cigarette smokers will cause harm to our health. We should not have to get our clothing, and hair filled with smelly cigarette smoke, because the use of PVs is misunderstood. Education, education, education!

I will continue to vape when I have the need to, no matter where I am, but will be mindful of those around me. My PV does not look like an analog, and I really think those that look like analogs, are doing us a disservice.

 

[swedishfish]

That's amazing and it would be great if every hospital starting doing this! Chances are many patients would chose to continue vaping and quit smoking when they were discharged. Just imagine all the lives this could potentially save.

They won't if we act like they're cigarettes.

 

[Levitas]

...sigh

Your understanding of human nature, sociology and psychology must be different than all the university courses I took on those subjects. Marketplace establishments and the government do not ban something just on a whim. No one wants to be in an establishment with someone who has poor personal hygiene but you don't see any bans for people who smell bad.

Yes yes, you've taken courses at a University thus you're an expert, I get it. I am in school to become a RN, and I've taken most of those courses, though I don't pretend to think I know 100% why any establishment might want to ban vaping.

You're example of not banning people because of poor hygene makes no sense in this debate, because I am debating that we have no clue if vaping is 100% safe as of yet. Someone else's poor hygene isn't going to cause any health issues to anyone else around them. Though, there is a difference between exhaling clouds of vapor in the air as opposed to someone smelling bad. Now, someone walking around naked, that's not causing any actual harm, but it's banned (in most places) as it is offensive to some.

Banning an activity applies a stigma to that activity and WILL be perceived as unsafe, especially an activity that resembles smoking. And once a ban is in place, it virtually is never lifted. So don't try to tell us that bans do not denote a negative connotation. And I worked in the corporate world for years at a high enough level to know that once a nationwide corporation bans something, other natiowide corporations take note and will start to follow suit. It is just easier to ban something that to research it and understand it.

You don't know if vaping is safe, sir. No one does, period. We are pretty sure that it is safer than smoking, but that is irrelavent. Why would an establishment wish to take a risk, allowing a brand new product in their building such as vaping, if they do not even know all of the possible repercussions?

So it has nothing to do with whether you personally feel the need to vape in Starbucks or not. It has everything to do with the perception that is applied to vaping when it is banned. And your position that we as vapers need to do nothing to promote vaping in a respectful manner, will definitely not lead to these "unknown studies" by unknown people that will save the day. If people who vape do not care if vaping is banned and are not willing to advocate for vaping rights and vaping studies, then why should anyone else?

That depends entirely on what you mean by promoting vaping in a respectful manner. You walk into a Starbucks, ask if you can vape, they say no, what do you do? Continue to try and persuade them to allow you to? Perhaps start lecturing them with those University level courses on why they should allow a product to flow freely in the air that has absolutely no long term studies backing how safe or not it could be to themselves, or other customers? Or is that when you in fact do nothing? Or is it just enough to ask if you can? How far is promoting in a respectful manner before it becomes, ultimately, a hinderance to the cause?

Since you have only been vaping a few months, maybe you are unaware of the FDA study that was already done on vaping. It showed that only one sample out of 18 had any carcinogenetic substances in the liquid and the level found was the same level found in nicotine patches and gum and that it was "not deemed unsafe at this level". But what did the FDA report and do? They reported that carcinogentic substances were found in eliquid and promptly banned their importation or selling. From what you have posted, I would guess you would be fine with this total misrepresentation of the facts about vaping based on this study.

Oh, you mean this study? http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/centers-institutes/population-development/files/article.jphp.pdf Along with the other studies done through other various labs... Yes, I am well aware of it. I've written many papers on smoke cessation and electronic cigarettes... does that make me an expert? Nope. Does the fact that I've only been vaping for 4 months make me ignorant? No sir, it does not. Please don't make assumptions on my motives... you've taken a psychology class, you're not a psychologist, don't pretend to be one. You don't know me. I never made any such assumptions towards you, if you actually read my post, I asked questions and put forth my opinion. I made no assumption on your character or motive, let's be adults, okay?

I never put something into my body without knowing as much, if not everything possible about the substance. At least everything I can physically get ahold of, information-wise.

The salient point is, if we as vapers do not advocate for vaping, but instead do nothing as you suggest, then vaping can very easily be characterized as unsafe and banned everywhere.

I guess you've already written how many letters to the CEO of Starbucks with charts and pie graphs chalked full of information on vaping and how safe it is? Well, why not? Aren't you going to do something about this? If we allow Starbucks to ban vaping then soon it'll be completely banned everywhere! Right? I am just asking, because you've been vaping for two years and have taken some University level courses and I just really want your opinion. I never could hope to aspire to the greatness that is you, but one day, I hope to at least be good enough to walk in your shadow.

Love always,
The ignorant guy who has nothing in stake with vaping.

 

[Levitas]

NOTHING is perfectly safe.

The onus is not on vapers to prove anything - it's on anti-vaping entities to prove that it IS unsafe. You seem to be operating under a couple of misconceptions:

1. Vaping is probably bad for you and those around you.
2. Vaping is synonymous with smoking.
3. Vapers should follow the same rules that smokers must abide by.

You're assuming that I am operating under these misconceptions. Let me clear the air for you.

1.No one knows 100% for sure how bad vaping is for you, or those around you. As you put, there have been no studies showing it's safety or it's potential harm, long term, because there are none. It is irresposible to think that vaping is safe with no evidence showing it so.

2.Is it not? To the general public, I mean. What is the biggest difference between a cigarette and vaping, as far as these establishments and the "general public" perceive? Safety. We don't want to be around smoke because it is proven to cause harm. But, vaping hasn't been proved or disproved to be safe or not. As I had said, it is irresponsible to say otherwise. I hold no illusions to vaping, but you seem to think that nothing at all can happen to you or those around you, after vaping for long periods of time. And you do not know that, period.

3.I never said that, not once. I said that I personally do not vape in establishments and I ask why is it so hard to just wait to vape privately in the comfort of your car or home. If the establishment allows it, AWESOME! You won't see me giving lectures to the owner, I'll bust out the MonkeyBoxx and vape away. But, since this is such a new product still being evaluated and tested for safety purposes, don't you think that if they don't want it around, we should respect that? At the very least until concrete evidence showing that vaping will cause no harm to anyone can be produced?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is, what difference does it make it someone vapes at a coffee shop, restaurant, Lowe's parking lot, etc.? WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE WITH YOU?? Is it because YOU think that vaping and smoking are the basically same thing?

See, it's exactly this type of attitude that gets nothing accomplished. You're looking for a battle, and you'll not get one. I clearly made my point as to why it is an "issue" to me or not. Whether or not you wish to acknowledge what I've said or not.

I guess in order to get it across to you, I have to use big letters and change the color. That seems to be the way you "get" it. So,

Vaping has not been 100% proven to be safe for those using the product or those around the vapor.

 

[swedishfish]

The reason smoking bans were put into place was because of the damage/dangers of second hand smoke and the chemicals. Not because the smoke was offensive to people. Anything can be offensive.

At least 69 of the toxic chemicals in secondhand tobacco smoke cause cancer (1, 5, 6). These include the following:

Arsenic
Benzene
Beryllium (a toxic metal)
1,3–Butadiene (a hazardous gas)
Cadmium
Chromium (a metallic element)
Ethylene oxide
Nickel (a metallic element)
Polonium-210 (a radioactive chemical element)
Vinyl chloride
Other toxic chemicals in secondhand smoke are suspected to cause cancer, including (1):

Formaldehyde
Benzo[α]pyrene
Toluene


None of these in juice.

Name one thing that we know is 100% safe. You can't even say the coffee at Starbucks is 100% safe. How do we know 20 years from now they'll find the the fumes emitted from grinding coffee or perfume is 100% safe, or some other nonsense. What we do know is that it doesn't contain the chemicals in second hand smoke that caused cigarettes to be banned in the first place.

 

[WyattDerp]

No, not worry about it, but be aware of it. Look at the computers that caused fires! I happen to have had one of the HP's that was involved in the NVIDIA class action suit. You would not believe how hot the GPU would make the motherboard, which could be felt through the laptop itself.

This thread was started by WyattDerp, concerning the bans we impose on non-vape friendly establishments. Going with that, I honestly feel we have to make ourselves known, educate others concerning our personal vaporizers, and STOP calling them ecigs! They are not cigarettes, we do not smoke, and we need to get ourselves into a different mind-frame, if we expect others to see them as something other than cigarettes that use batteries! There are many of us that have been able to cut out the nicotine in their juice, so it would not be a nicotine delivery system for them, and we do not need non-vapers thinking that everyone is using a PV for nicotine addiction.

We need to explain how it is financially advantageous for a business to be vape friendly. That means educating those businesses concerning the benefits of vaping. A happy vaper is a happy customer. A vaper's vapor does not stink, will not yellow anything with tar/nicotine, we do not blow plumes of vapor in people's faces, we don't leave messes from our PV, etc. Forcing a vaper to stand outside in the cold, rain/snow, or heat, could cause some of us serious harm. Some of us suffer from COPD and other respiratory disorders, so forcing us to vape around cigarette smokers will cause harm to our health. We should not have to get our clothing, and hair filled with smelly cigarette smoke, because the use of PVs is misunderstood. Education, education, education!

I will continue to vape when I have the need to, no matter where I am, but will be mindful of those around me. My PV does not look like an analog, and I really think those that look like analogs, are doing us a disservice.

Awesome response. This is how I feel also. BTW, I work with warranties and you don't know how many times we had to help with claims for the NVIDIA issue as well as the exploding Sony batteries.

 

[Katya]

 

[Levitas]

Name one thing that we know is 100% safe. You can't even say the coffee at Starbucks is 100% safe. How do we know 20 years from now they'll find the the fumes emitted from grinding coffee or perfume is 100% safe, or some other nonsense. What we do know is that it doesn't contain the chemicals in second hand smoke that caused cigarettes to be banned in the first place.

Yes, but, does drinking coffee cause those around you any potential harm? My point is, that if there isn't any possible repercussions to second-hand vapor, then FANTASTIC and do away with all of the bans! I'll vape in public and inform any who wish to know. But, without any proof, or if it is dangerous in anyway, no matter how small or large, no matter how it compares to anything else, it is WRONG to subject others to something that might potentially cause harm to them, when they had no desire to be around the vapor in the first place.

Edit: I noticed that you said the fumes emitting from grinding coffee, well, this is a choice of the customer to come into the coffee shop. If you want coffee, you go to a coffee shop and enjoy some coffee, surely not worried about the fumes emitting from grinding the beans. However, if griding coffee beans was under investigation to find if it is or isn't safe, it isn't right to go grind coffee beans in an establishment in which those around you did not wish to be subjected to it in the first place.

 

[wv2win]

double post - delete

 

[swedishfish]

That's never going to happen if we sit quietly in our cars or hang with the cigarette smokers. We'll never get the chance because it'll be banned here like it is in other countries. Who's going to do this research that's going to prove it's safe?

Why do you think laws were passed for medical .........? They didn't have big companies or any support. They were out front and lobbied for it.

 

[wv2win]

double post - delete

 

[wv2win]

...I guess you've already written how many letters to the CEO of Starbucks with charts and pie graphs chalked full of information on vaping and how safe it is? Well, why not? Aren't you going to do something about this? If we allow Starbucks to ban vaping then soon it'll be completely banned everywhere! Right? I am just asking, because you've been vaping for two years and have taken some University level courses and I just really want your opinion. I never could hope to aspire to the greatness that is you, but one day, I hope to at least be good enough to walk in your shadow. ....

I never attacked you personally or made any comments about your character. I did disagree with your attitude which has gotten considerably worse with this condescending and childish post. And I disagreed with your position that vaping is not safe for anyone until some mysterious, unknown entity, that you do not name, blesses vaping through their research sometime in the unknown future. Yet you apparantly believe that we should keep quite, vape only with smokers and hope someone saves us.

And since you seem to imply that the fact that in your words, I "just took some university courses" somehow disqualifies my ability to understand basic socialogy and psychology, whereas you are "in school" to some day be an RN as if that means anything. Not that this means anything either but I do have my Masters degree and I didn't just take some courses.

And if you have done all of this research and still believe that vaping could be harmful to those near the person who is vaping, then no level of research or studies will satisfy you, which is quite sad. I have read all the studies and papers provided by CASAA, AAPHA and the FDA. There is no evidence that anything in exhaled vapor is harmful to others.

On writing letters on behalf of vaping, I've written, emailed and called over 45 different organizations, senators, congressman, local officials and businesses.

Other than being sarcastic and condescending, I have not read anything from you that supports your belief that we all need to do nothing because vaping may not be safe and we could harm untold innocent people.

 

[seantex]

It really boils down to the "MY HOUSE MY RULES" thing. When you are in a place that you don't own you follow the rules set by those who do own it or have authority over it. If you don't like it you can leave and I am sure they will not mind at all if you don't come back. If you are walking down the street then it is your right to use your e cig. If you are indoors or even in an open ball game you have to consider other peoples worries and fears. You can't try to bash it into their skulls that it is harmless because the more to try the worse you look. The people who own or manage the stadium just want everyone to have a good time and even though people may be wrong in wanting us to obstain from vaping we should be the bigger men and women and take one for the team to keep the peace. We are the minority so in places like baseball games and bars we unfortunately lose. We just have to educate people about the safety of e cigs and over time the stigma will go the way of the dinosaurs. Last thing... If we can't even agree amongst ourselves we have already lost because those who don't want us vaping are very much united.