Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Str8vision]

I have a question. Last summer i loved my homemade juices with stokkebye turkish 84 and yenidje from leafsonly. Since 2 months i dont like both. They are tasting very sweet like malt sugar. Is there a chemical reaction referring the tobacco after months ? I can not understand the taste changing of the two juices, i hate the taste now.

The naturally occurring sugars contained in the tobacco could develop/mature over time causing the extract/NET to taste sweeter. More likely though is that your sense of taste has changed and you now like drier tobacco flavor, this happened to me. I can no longer stand any sweetness in my NETs, the VG itself has almost become too sweet. Just a year ago I was adding sweetener....

 

[nostradadus]

I have a question. Last summer i loved my homemade juices with stokkebye turkish 84 and yenidje from leafsonly. Since 2 months i dont like both. They are tasting very sweet like malt sugar. Is there a chemical reaction referring the tobacco after months ? I can not understand the taste changing of the two juices, i hate the taste now.

I don't know about the chemical reaction, but whatever you do... don't throw out those NETs... I'll take'em!

They sound delicious to me!

I just did a 50/50 batch of PS 84 Turkish and Perique this morning; very nice ADV for my taste buds.

 

[nostradadus]

I'd never give up my temp controlled slow cooker, it's too handy

My new rice cooker holds a low temp of roughly +/- 120 degrees. The crock pot usually does +/- 150 degrees. I'll be using both for sure... but, my wife will be happy I'm not hogging the crock pot all the time now!

 

[jonnydoe]

The naturally occurring sugars contained in the tobacco could develop/mature over time causing the extract/NET to taste sweeter. More likely though is that your sense of taste has changed and you now like drier tobacco flavor, this happened to me. I can no longer stand any sweetness in my NETs, the VG itself has almost become too sweet. Just a year ago I was adding sweetener....

I have made 2 new extracts a few weeks ago with the same tobaccos from last year. Its the same taste, both are tasting like malt sugar. I dont understand this. Starch fermentation of my storaged tobacco and juices ?

I dont believe that my taste could has changed sooo much. Turkish tobaccos are my favourits and now i cant vape them ? I am thinking about buying the sun cured turkish from net.com to have a comparison.

 

[Str8vision]

I have made 2 new extracts a few weeks ago with the same tobaccos from last year. Its the same taste, both are tasting like malt sugar. I dont understand this. Starch fermentation of my storaged tobacco and juices ?

I dont believe that my taste could has changed sooo much. Turkish tobaccos are my favourits and now i cant vape them ? I am thinking about buying the sun cured turkish from net.com to have a comparison.

I doubt leaf tobacco would change that quickly. Sure sounds like your sense of taste might be the culprit but if that were the case I'd think some of your other old favorites would also seem too sweet now.

 

[Str8vision]

....my wife will be happy I'm not hogging the crock pot all the time now!

I knew the wife would frown upon my use of -her- crock pot for such nefarious purposes especially the part where I'd be modifying it (think Tim Allen) with an electronic temp controller so I just bought her a new one first, a win-win.

 

[jonnydoe]

No, my other favorite is basma since a year and i love it.

I have ordered oriental extracts from Clay to compare them with my own. He has new extracts, because i have seen the old sun cured turkish, an other turkish, izmir and Smyrna. It will be very interesting to taste them all. Cant wait...

 

[Str8vision]

Just started my latest round of extractions, well over a pound of various pipe tobaccos and cigars that required 5040ml of ethanol. The Old Joe Krantz and Billy Bud I ordered was out of stock so I'll start those whenever they do arrive. Most of these extractions will be heated at 165F for ~1 hour followed by a 4+ month room temperature soak. The two "new" tobaccos I'm sampling will be processed at 165F for 12 hours.

I also have three small half pint (Mason "jelly" jar) extractions of "Acid Blondie" that will be processed at 165F for 12 hours as part of an experiment. Each half pint jar contains 1/2 ounce of finely ground "Blondie" cigar tobacco and 150ml of extraction solvent. The solvent in the first jar is 190 proof PGA (95% ethanol) and will be the control sample for this group. The second jar contains a 90/10 PGA/PG blended solvent and the third jar contains a 80/10/10 PGA/PG/VG solvent blend. The primary goal of the experiment is to study the effects small ratios of PG and VG have on ethanol's freeze filtering attribute. Depending on the results, a second round of extractions may be required to establish what level of dilution is required before ethanol begins to lose this attribute.

 

[Str8vision]

The experimental extractions have been in the freezer (-20F) for 24 hours and while I intend to keep them there for 5 days I decided to take a look. The ethanol based extract (the control) has a thin layer of white precipitate (muck) covering the bottom of the jar, exactly as expected this is normal. The 90/10 PGA/PG extract has a similar layer of white muck that may be slightly more abundant than the control. The surprise came from the 80/10/10 PGA/PG/VG extract, it appears to have a -thick- layer of white muck at least 4x the volume of the control. Interesting, definitely not what I was expecting to see. I wonder if the ethanol reacted with the VG and at -20F some of the white precipitate is actually a constituent of the VG? To test this I'm mixing 90/10 PGA/VG inside a 9ml glass vial and will place it in the freezer. The only reference material I have comes from the world of herbalists. I read that when added to an alcohol tincture, VG stops tannins and alkaloids from binding together which prevents them from precipitating out of solution. Judging by the volume of white muck in the bottom of the jar a whole lot of something is precipitating out.

 

[happy valley]

Interesting, as usual, Str8, and forgive me for being dense but what do you reckon this early look at the samples might mean?

 

[Str8vision]

Too early to form any definite conclusions but it certainly appears an ethanol based extract can be successfully freeze filtered even when diluted with PG and or VG.

After freeze filtering is complete, the extracts reduced and filtered, I'll be able to sample the flavor and test their purity/performance. If (a big if) they taste and perform as well as the ethanol based (control) extraction, I'll conduct additional experiments using higher ratios of PG/VG. The "goal" is to establish what level of dilution (ratio) adversely impacts ethanol's freeze filtering ability (and/or flavor). Conversely, it will also determine if a PG/VG based extract can be "purified" and if so establish a method/procedure for doing so. I still have a lot of PG/VG based extracts in storage made from tobaccos that are no longer available. This might allow me to purify them enhancing their performance to the levels of an ethanol based, freeze filtered extraction (3x). I'd rather not vape the wax, resin and other plant gunk I now know PG/VG based extracts are saturated with. All that muck we catch/remove with freeze filtering stays in PG/VG based extracts, it's why they're so hard on wicks/coils.

 

[jonnydoe]

Sorry, my english. I dont understand every word. You have freeze filtered some older pg-vg extracts and you have found some wax in the filter and you are thinking that these extracts have more wax as your extracts from your newer freeze-filtering method.

Have you ever filtered an older extract which you have made by freeze-filtering a second time after months ? Could it be that you would find the same amount of wax ?

 

[jonnydoe]

I did not understood again. What is the white muck ? Is it wax ? I have seen this ring of the white muck on the top of some bottles of my vg-nets, but not at all of my vg-nets. My nets are usually mixtures of 70%VG, 30%PG, nicotine and extract.

 

[Str8vision]

I did not understood again. What is the white muck ? Is it wax ?

The "white muck" is waxes, sugars, oils, resin, chlorophyll and other undesirable things we inadvertently leech from the tobacco when extracting the flavor from it. Unfortunately, mechanical filtering doesn't remove these undesirable elements which is why NETs are so hard on wicks and coils (gunky). Freeze filtering causes some of these undesirable elements to precipitate out of solution turning them into a semi-solid (the white muck) that can then be separated (removed) from the extract by filtering. Unfortunately, only ethanol based extractions can be freeze filtered.

Sorry, my english. I dont understand every word. You have freeze filtered some older pg-vg extracts and you have found some wax in the filter and you are thinking that these extracts have more wax as your extracts from your newer freeze-filtering method.

Only ethanol based extracts can be freeze filtered. I'm simply -trying- to determine if PG and VG based extracts could be freeze filtered if enough ethanol is mixed with them. If it works then PG/VG based extracts could be "purified" by freeze filtering them, then the added ethanol could simply be evaporated off. -If- it works it might be possible for a PG based extract to be as clean as an ethanol based extract (far less gunky). I have many old irreplaceable PG based extracts that I would like to purify. The tobacco they were made from is no longer sold/available. I really don't want to vape them now that I know they're saturated with this "muck", I would prefer them to be muck free. As the old saying goes; necessity is the mother of invention...

 

[kbriggs]

If it works then PG/VG based extracts could be "purified" by freeze filtering them, then the added ethanol could simply be evaporated off. -If- it works it might be possible for a PG based extract to be as clean as an ethanol based extract

I conducted my own little experiment recently where I did the normal 12-hour PGA cook followed by the 48-hour freeze and micron filter. Then I added PG to the PGA extract, increasing the weight by 20% and then performed the fan-induced evaporation. I wanted to see if I could get all or most of the alcohol out and just be left with a highly concentrated PG extract and to also see if I would lose less solid material sticking to the jar during evaporation. I was thinking some of it might dissolve in the PG. But that didn't happen, I got the usual amount of gunk sticking to the jar.

I did however evaporate off at least 90% of the PGA in about 15 hours, where the rate slowly came to a crawl. I was measuring by weight every couple of hours. As a control, I also placed a jar with just PG in it, equal to the amount that I added to the other extract. Under the same fan, it actually increased in weight about 13% over 6 hours. Apparently absorbing moisture from the air. So of the remaining 10% PGA that didn't evaporate off, it's possible that some of that was replaced by water, absorbed into the PG.

Anyway, this was a batch of Billy Budd and it came out fine. I think the main advantage of adding PG to the PGA before evaporation is that I don't have to monitor it closely to make sure I don't over-reduce (which I've done before). I can just let it go all day and when I get back to back weighing with no change, I'll know it's done.

 

[Rickb119]

Apparently absorbing moisture from the air.

Moisture in the air? In Houston?

I lived in the Dallas area for a number of years and traveled to Houston often.

 

[Str8vision]

..........The surprise came from the 80/10/10 PGA/PG/VG extract, it appears to have a -thick- layer of white muck at least 4x the volume of the control. Interesting, definitely not what I was expecting to see. I wonder if the ethanol reacted with the VG and at -20F some of the white precipitate is actually a constituent of the VG? To test this I'm mixing 90/10 PGA/VG inside a 9ml glass vial and will place it in the freezer.

Just an observation;
After 48 hours in the freezer the 9ml test mix of just ethanol/VG yielded absolutely nothing, it's crystal clear. This tells me that -all- of the visible precipitate (muck) in the 80/10/10 PGA/PG/VG extraction was leeched from the tobacco. Apparently, VG (even in very small amounts) pulls a lot of muck from the tobacco, far more than ethanol or PG.

 

[Str8vision]

..........I did however evaporate off at least 90% of the PGA in about 15 hours, where the rate slowly came to a crawl. I was measuring by weight every couple of hours. As a control, I also placed a jar with just PG in it, equal to the amount that I added to the other extract. Under the same fan, it actually increased in weight about 13% over 6 hours. Apparently absorbing moisture from the air. So of the remaining 10% PGA that didn't evaporate off, it's possible that some of that was replaced by water, absorbed into the PG.

Excellent observation. 190 proof PGA is 95% ethanol and 5% water right out of the bottle, highly hygroscopic it'll pull moisture directly from the air and absorb it. Mixed with PG or VG (both are also hygroscopic) the 5% water wont evaporate off, it'll be absorbed by the PG and or VG as the ethanol evaporates. Once absorbed it's near impossible to remove because the water isn't in a free state but locked in solution. Left uncovered for evaporation even more moisture will be absorbed from the surrounding air which could account for the weight gain you experienced long after the ethanol evaporated off.

......Anyway, this was a batch of Billy Budd and it came out fine. I think the main advantage of adding PG to the PGA before evaporation is that I don't have to monitor it closely to make sure I don't over-reduce (which I've done before). I can just let it go all day and when I get back to back weighing with no change, I'll know it's done.

Agree 100%. If a person wants to transfer the extracted flavor from ethanol over to PG, adding the PG before reduction is the smart thing to do. I normally don't transfer the flavor but leave it ethanol based However I'm beginning to stockpile extracts for long term cold storage and for that I'll be transferring the flavor over to a VG base, the same base as my liquid nic. Check this out, every 100ml of ethanol based extract contains a minimum of 5ml of water. Once I mix in 30ml of VG and evaporate the ethanol off I'll likely end up with close to 36ml of VG based extract that contains 20% water. 18% of that water comes from the 5+ml of water that was contained in the ethanol but I'll likely pick up another few % during evaporation.

 

[jonnydoe]

I think that you can see the white muck at the top of a vg based net because of the difference between the density:

VG: 1,26
PG: 1,04
sunflower oil for white muck: 0,93
Ethanol: 0,7893

PG and oil is very close in their density and VG has a bigger one. Perhaps its a reason ?

VG must be soluble with fat or oil but pg not. So why cant we see the "white muck" on the top of pg based net ? For this reason the white muck cant be a fat. Wax is even a fat or not ?
How to separate the "white muck" and what are the ingredients of it ?

 

[Str8vision]

I've never had any white precipitate form on top of an extract, it -always- settles on the very bottom. But yes it certainly appears something contained in the tobacco is more soluble in VG than it is with either PG or PGA.