US Deeming Date Change - Denied

[WattWick]

Considering what the FDA accepts with cigs, I fear any amount of BT 'enhancements' for cigs will make their way into the few liquids backed by enough money to squeeze through the greasy loophole. Oh the irony.

ETA: Pre-coffee post. I realize this thread is about hardware.

 

[crxess]

Interesting read, alright, as is the date which is 10/29/15. In this environment, that is ancient history.

How so?

Possible Court injunctions pending constitutional rulings.

 

[curiousJan]

Possible Court injunctions pending constitutional rulings.

Oh I understand that. Legal actions will swiftly follow the publishing of the deeming regs if they are what we think they are. My question was more as to why the linked story was "ancient history."

 

[curiousJan]

Considering what the FDA accepts with cigs, I fear any amount of BT 'enhancements' for cigs will make their way into the few liquids backed by enough money to squeeze through the greasy loophole. Oh the irony.

Not mine. I DIY and have 8-10 years worth of nic in the freezer.

 

[Karen Powell]

OMG!!!

 

[schatz]

Considering what the FDA accepts with cigs, I fear any amount of BT 'enhancements' for cigs will make their way into the few liquids backed by enough money to squeeze through the greasy loophole. Oh the irony.

ETA: Pre-coffee post. I realize this thread is about hardware.

This was my thoughts also,I have stocked up mainly because I want what is available now unadulterated. Who knows what BT will figure out to introduce to keep masses addiction going.Right now many are able to lower and even go to 0mmg. with no problems, that cannot be good for business.

 

[DC2]

I don't know what to say to this, other than what’s already been said. Its the big money tobacco companies that are winning this fight and its because they have big money.

I know your heart is in the right place, but your post above exemplifies the brainwashing you have experienced.

Big Tobacco is a small player in what is really going on.
It's more about government taxes, the MSA, the "non-profit" charity groups, and Big Pharma.

The fact the nearly every new vaper on this forum immediately thinks Big Tobacco is behind things...
Just shows how effectively the decades-long propaganda has worked.

EDIT: Lots more information on what I talking about is available upon request

 

[DC2]

Two words for you... Black Market, do you honestly think anyone will just stop making stuff? Look at how well prohibition worked out, hell look at cigarettes and those aren't even banned.

I think people are drastically over-estimating Black Market availability.

Who is going to continue making ANYTHING if free-roaming nicotine liquids are shut down.
Nobody, that's who.

 

[JDC1958]

I know your heart is in the right place, but your post above exemplifies the brainwashing you have experienced.

Big Tobacco is a small player in what is really going on.
It's more about government taxes, the MSA, the "non-profit" charity groups, and Big Pharma.

The fact the nearly every new vaper on this forum immediately thinks Big Tobacco is behind things...
Just shows how effectively the decades-long propaganda has worked.

EDIT: Lots more information on what I talking about is available upon request

You don't really have my whole picture. Here is a post I made in another thread:

Big Tobacco may eventually end up being the biggest supporter, marketer, and R&D investor into ECigs if this trend in Europe continues:

Big Tobacco is suing the U.K. over plain packaging law

 

[DC2]

For any new vapers that don't do their research this might be true, but for those who know there will be high end gear available. Word of mouth goes a long way as well, these forums will definitely help with that.

There is some concern that ECF will not be able to stay afloat if advertising is banned.

This may have the biggest impact and slow the trend of people leaving stinkies for ecigs. Exactly what big tobacco wants to happen.

And also what Big Government, the "non-profit" health organizations, the ANTZ, and Big Pharma want to happen.

Yes sooner or later prices will go up. I don't see how they can ever make a nicotine product completely illegal since that would squash big tobacco as well.

The FSPTCA explicitly prevents the FDA from reducing nicotine content to zero.
Zero is a very small number though.

 

[JDC1958]

There is some concern that ECF will not be able to stay afloat if advertising is banned.


And also what Big Government, the "non-profit" health organizations, the ANTZ, and Big Pharma want to happen.


The FSPTCA explicitly prevents the FDA from reducing nicotine content to zero.
Zero is a very small number though.

I think Big Tobacco is looking at this as a two pronged attack. Its very hard to market a 200 dollar device to kids; but they can afford a six dollar pack of stinkies. If and when tobacco is no longer feasible and/or the kids have grown up and want off the stinkies, they are ready with their ecigs to help out.

They are going to make money off of both; and a lot of it. For those who think I am paranoid, lets wait and see what companies are producing the latest and greatest ecigs two years from now.

 

[rhelton]

(and Barry could sign)

Thats President Soetoro calling him by his first name is disrespectful

 

[Hans Wermhat]

While I haven't been able to find an actual verbatim copy of the FDA's proposed regs (It's like Obamacare. You can't read it until AFTER it passes, and they obviously don't want the general public to know what's in there.), what I have seen is definitely designed to put an end to vaping while giving a free pass to BT. However, it is riddled with loopholes. The idea that e-cigs are intended to be a nicotine delivery system is the only way our gear is covered under the regulations. If marketed as dimmable flashlight batteries and personal saline atomizers for sinus/bronchial congestion, and labeled with wording relieving the manufacturer/retailer of liability in case of improper or unintended use, I think the gear will be readily available. The only ingredient in juice that is in any way a "tobacco product" is the nicotine. Remove that from the product and label it as a liquid potpourri product to be vaporized as an "air freshener" and it should no longer be a problem. There are already a plethora of candy and fruit scented candles and air fresheners, so the ANTZ folks can't say we are tryig to get kids hooked on candles.

I've been doing research on the rest of the things we need to vape and have found that literally everything, even the nicotine in liquid form was easily found before e-cigs and had a variety of uses. As long as it isn't marketed as a vapor product, even the nicotine should be as easy to find as it ever was, but will require additional labeling to avoid supplier liability. If there is something in the regs to change this, I'm still not too concerned. A new breed of vape-friendly doctors is already emerging, and a prescription for a nicotine liquid "for dilution in food/beverage products" (i.e VG or PG based and prescribed as a "nicotine replacement therapy") would likely be an easy find, and after the initial demand surge, pharmacies would offer a reasonably priced, high quality product.

Also, the fact that the regulations are under the FDA's rulings makes enforcement at the local level extremely problematic anyway. FDA rules can not be enforced by the police. Possession of nicotine in any form by adults is not criminal. Unless additional laws that the FDA doesn't have the authority to write are written, the only local level agency that can enforce the new regs will be the health department. Being a civil entity, they lack the power to arrest anyone and can only levy fines, and they lack the power to revoke a business's operating license. Therefore they could not close a business "found to be selling" vapor products. They would have to petition the state agency that issued the business license to have them revoke it. Most (probably ALL) local health inspectors are extremely overworked already trying to do mandatory annual inspections on the food service and medical sites in their jurisdictions. Adding in the extra work of enforcing the new regulations would mean they would have to hire more inspectors, ad most city governments can't afford that. I haven't seen any funding for enforcement measures in the regulations either.

 

[Rossum]

Thats President Soetoro calling him by his first name is disrespectful

That was intentional.

But it shouldn't be viewed as partisan because I have nearly equal disdain for all politicians, no matter the exact flavor of statism they wish to inflict on us.

 

[skoony]

While I haven't been able to find an actual verbatim copy of the FDA's proposed regs (It's like Obamacare. You can't read it until AFTER it passes, and they obviously don't want the general public to know what's in there.), what I have seen is definitely designed to put an end to vaping while giving a free pass to BT. However, it is riddled with loopholes. The idea that e-cigs are intended to be a nicotine delivery system is the only way our gear is covered under the regulations. If marketed as dimmable flashlight batteries and personal saline atomizers for sinus/bronchial congestion, and labeled with wording relieving the manufacturer/retailer of liability in case of improper or unintended use, I think the gear will be readily available. The only ingredient in juice that is in any way a "tobacco product" is the nicotine. Remove that from the product and label it as a liquid potpourri product to be vaporized as an "air freshener" and it should no longer be a problem. There are already a plethora of candy and fruit scented candles and air fresheners, so the ANTZ folks can't say we are tryig to get kids hooked on candles.

I've been doing research on the rest of the things we need to vape and have found that literally everything, even the nicotine in liquid form was easily found before e-cigs and had a variety of uses. As long as it isn't marketed as a vapor product, even the nicotine should be as easy to find as it ever was, but will require additional labeling to avoid supplier liability. If there is something in the regs to change this, I'm still not too concerned. A new breed of vape-friendly doctors is already emerging, and a prescription for a nicotine liquid "for dilution in food/beverage products" (i.e VG or PG based and prescribed as a "nicotine replacement therapy") would likely be an easy find, and after the initial demand surge, pharmacies would offer a reasonably priced, high quality product.

Also, the fact that the regulations are under the FDA's rulings makes enforcement at the local level extremely problematic anyway. FDA rules can not be enforced by the police. Possession of nicotine in any form by adults is not criminal. Unless additional laws that the FDA doesn't have the authority to write are written, the only local level agency that can enforce the new regs will be the health department. Being a civil entity, they lack the power to arrest anyone and can only levy fines, and they lack the power to revoke a business's operating license. Therefore they could not close a business "found to be selling" vapor products. They would have to petition the state agency that issued the business license to have them revoke it. Most (probably ALL) local health inspectors are extremely overworked already trying to do mandatory annual inspections on the food service and medical sites in their jurisdictions. Adding in the extra work of enforcing the new regulations would mean they would have to hire more inspectors, ad most city governments can't afford that. I haven't seen any funding for enforcement measures in the regulations either.

The FDA is redefining what intended use means to also including actual use.
There. Will be no loop holes.
Regards
Mike

 

[Flt Simulation]

Well, I can assure you that after all these new rules and taxes are in place, you will still be able to get anything you need as far as vaping hardware, pre-made juice and DIY juice making supplies (ie: unflavored Nic base, flavorings) from China ..... Just like you can still order online non-taxed (illegal) cigarettes from suppliers in the Ukraine, Moldovia and Russia.

Just means more sales going directly to Chinese suppliers.

 

[herb]

I've been called chicken little twice now for stocking up on some stuff. I don't know why those members give a flying you-know-what about what I choose to do.

That is mind boggling isn't it , when i was a youngster nobody cared who you were or what you were doing , people actually "had lives" back then.

These days you got people following you (facebook) , ridiculous quantities of (who knows who they are's) wanting to be your friend , you ever see what some of these "friend requesters" look like , very very scary .

No "facebook" for me man , got the hell out of there asap.

 

[JDC1958]

Well, I can assure you that after all these new rules and taxes are in place, you will still be able to get anything you need as far as vaping hardware, pre-made juice and DIY juice making supplies (ie: unflavored Nic base, flavorings) from China ..... Just like you can still order online non-taxed (illegal) cigarettes from suppliers in the Ukraine, Moldovia and Russia.

Just means more sales going directly to Chinese suppliers.

So I will be able to order illegal products with no guarantee of fit, finish, or functionality, not to mention risk them being confiscated at a total loss.

That really does not ease any of my concerns. Being prepared with current reputable backup hardware and nic juice does. We will all hate these new regulations once they take full effect and I really feel sorry for those that think its going to be business as usual.

 

[skoony]

Well, I can assure you that after all these new rules and taxes are in place, you will still be able to get anything you need as far as vaping hardware, pre-made juice and DIY juice making supplies (ie: unflavored Nic base, flavorings) from China ..... Just like you can still order online non-taxed (illegal) cigarettes from suppliers in the Ukraine, Moldovia and Russia.

Just means more sales going directly to Chinese suppliers.

If you haven't noticed every thing that gets shipped commercially has a scanable
label with where it came and where it's going. Stopping shipments in customs
would be easy as pie. They have done it before.
This time around, no loop holes.
Regards
Mike

 

[Flt Simulation]

So I will be able to order illegal products with no guarantee of fit, finish, or functionality, not to mention risk them being confiscated at a total loss.

Not to worry ... almost all the atomizers, mods, etc you buy now are made in China ... They will still be there and be ready for your purchase.