US Deeming Date Change - Denied

[Rossum]

I'm still not too concerned. A new breed of vape-friendly doctors is already emerging, and a prescription for a nicotine liquid "for dilution in food/beverage products" (i.e VG or PG based and prescribed as a "nicotine replacement therapy") would likely be an easy find, and after the initial demand surge, pharmacies would offer a reasonably priced, high quality product.

So doctors will prescribe and pharmacies will carry something that isn't "FDA Approved"? Color me skeptical.

Also, the fact that the regulations are under the FDA's rulings makes enforcement at the local level extremely problematic anyway. FDA rules can not be enforced by the police. Possession of nicotine in any form by adults is not criminal. Unless additional laws that the FDA doesn't have the authority to write are written, the only local level agency that can enforce the new regs will be the health department. Being a civil entity, they lack the power to arrest anyone and can only levy fines, and they lack the power to revoke a business's operating license. Therefore they could not close a business "found to be selling" vapor products.

If they can raid and close down places selling unpasteurized dairy products and other straight-from-the-farm foods they don't approve of, why can't they raid vape shops?

They would have to petition the state agency that issued the business license to have them revoke it. Most (probably ALL) local health inspectors are extremely overworked already trying to do mandatory annual inspections on the food service and medical sites in their jurisdictions. Adding in the extra work of enforcing the new regulations would mean they would have to hire more inspectors, ad most city governments can't afford that. I haven't seen any funding for enforcement measures in the regulations either.

But: Bureaucracy loves nothing better than to have an excuse to grow.

 

[JDC1958]

Not to worry ... almost all the atomizers, mods, etc you buy now are made in China ... They will still be there and be ready for your purchase.

I know were they are made; but I shop at local vape stores and reputable online vape stores. 3rd time around vaping and I’ve yet to order directly from China.

So "wait" is a keyword as China will be waiting a long time on me, especially if it is considered illegal

 

[DC2]

I've been doing research on the rest of the things we need to vape and have found that literally everything, even the nicotine in liquid form was easily found before e-cigs and had a variety of uses.

I'd like to know more about that, as long as you don't say pesticides.
You'll be wrong if you are thinking pesticides.

 

[Douggro]

So doctors will prescribe and pharmacies will carry something that isn't "FDA Approved"? Color me skeptical.

It worked during Prohibition… Doctors prescribing "medicinal" alcohol.

Then again, look at what the government did back then with denaturing grain alcohol for industrial use: they put chemicals in that couldn't be re-distilled back out, knowingly poisoning tens of thousands of people.

 

[crxess]

I'd like to know more about that, as long as you don't say pesticides.
You'll be wrong if you are thinking pesticides.

People don't think of little terms like Regulated or Heavily Regulated.
Oh, I can find Nicotine, no problem...........maybe today
How will you qualify for Restricted permits for purchase/distribution

No Worries, China makes everything anyway..........and customs will Seize it all.

_______________________________________________________

Though I must disagree with your BT is a small player comment. BT's up front role may seem small, but they have played the game well.
Their Goal of Market control has been very strategic.

1) Enter the e-cig market - markedly late - but in a Loud{notice I did not say big} way.
Minimize expense with each BT Corp. producing one select line of Crap e-cig
2) Publicly Advertise {TV} said product breaking a decades old silence.
3) Become the E-cig Business Target for every Medical and Social anti-Smoking Group.
4) Backdoor fund bills banning cross border sales, internet sales, age restrictions(use), facility standards, taxing products in as many States as reachable.

These are just a few quick references ^^^ toward their role.

BT has learned from Hollywood - Even Bad Publicity can be good business.
BT is well aware they are the guys everyone Loves to Hate.

Interesting Article(propaganda?)
Big Tobacco’s War on Vaping, by Gregory Conley, National Review

 

[DC2]

Though I must disagree with your BT is a small player comment.

I wouldn't say they aren't a significant player, but they are not the ones driving this bus.
And in the end, they are just going to get the crumbs.

 

[beckdg]

So doctors will prescribe and pharmacies will carry something that isn't "FDA Approved"?

Seems legit.

If they can raid and close down places selling unpasteurized dairy products and other straight-from-the-farm foods they don't approve of, why can't they raid vape shops?

Say it isn't so.

Tapatyped

 

[JDC1958]

I wouldn't say they aren't a significant player, but they are not the ones driving this bus.
And in the end, they are just going to get the crumbs.

I would call the U.S. market the largest E-Cig market in the world. Not a bad get and certainly not crumbs.

 

[daviedog]

Millions of parcels a day? Scan each one? Not likely..

 

[DC2]

I would call the U.S. market the largest E-Cig market in the world. Not a bad get and certainly not crumbs.

Ah, so you are assuming the market will survive the deeming regulations essentially intact.

The question is not what the entire market is today, but what the cigalike market is like today.
Because cigalikes will be all that's left after the deeming.

Anyway, regardless of what one believes...

It is NOT Big Tobacco driving this bus against vaping.
They are in the backseat.

 

[Douggro]

Millions of parcels a day? Scan each one? Not likely..

Oh, very likely. It's being done already. All incoming international mail and parcels are screened by CBP. Granted, they're looking for other stuff now, but not a big reach to have them start flagging shipments from suspect companies/addresses for "further screening".

 

[JDC1958]

Ah, so you are assuming the market will survive the deeming regulations essentially intact.

The question is not what the entire market is today, but what the cigalike market is like today.
Because cigalikes will be all that's left after the deeming.

Anyway, regardless of what one believes...

It is NOT Big Tobacco driving this bus against vaping.
They are in the backseat.

I don't agree with the cigalike only some are thinking here. If anyone can design a LEMO2, Kafun, or Vapor Zeus like device and mod then get them to pass FDA Regulations it would be one of the richer tobacco companies or any big company that has the money to invest. Most of the R&D is done, just look at all the clones.

Problem I see is instead of buying the device or tank at a vape shop for 25.00 to 75.00 dollars each, they will be in big case behind a counter in a department store going for 100.00 to 200.00 each.

Cost, cost, cost, that is what is going to change. Its why vape shops, juice makers, and device makers will be going out of business. Some may make it but most will not.

 

[roxynoodle]

I don't agree with the cigalike only some are thinking here. If anyone can design a LEMO2, Kafun, or Vapor Zeus like device and mod then get them to pass FDA Regulations it would be one of the richer tobacco companies or any big company that has the money to invest. Most of the R&D is done, just look at all the clones.

Problem I see is instead of buying the device or tank at a vape shop for 25.00 to 75.00 dollars each, they will be in big case behind a counter in a department store going for 100.00 to 200.00 each.

Cost, cost, cost, that is what is going to change. Its why vape shops, juice makers, and device makers will be going out of business. Some may make it but most will not.

But, how to get a Lemo type atty through the application process? You might lose $2 million trying.

 

[Stinkytofus]

Sad time for Vapers in the United States, as well as Millions of Current Smokers. Government Has decided it is Better the Keep Tobacco at the Forefront of Health concerns and Block Tobacco Free Alternatives.
and the rich get richer.

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary

A tiny ray of Hope still shining:
The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: My Public Comment to OIRA on FDA Deeming Regulations

Some how, I have lost all faith in - FOR THE PEOPLE

My Backup plan is in place. I was hoping it would never come to this. Like Thousands of other members, I have spread the word, there is a Better Choice...........well, There Was.

Big Tobacco - 1
US Citizens - 0

Think hard the Next you are asked to Vote...............just make sure you Do, Vote.

We dont decide whats good for us, Ppl in the top 1% does, if cigarette industry gets heavily dented by the cheaper alternative of ecigs, their profits drop dramatically

Its kind of sick, like the pharmacy industry... The drugs arent designed to cure u but to keep u on it forever.... Its all about profits, not about us

 

[Douggro]

But, how to get a Lemo type atty through the application process? You might lose $2 million trying.

$2M might be a conservative number. Rejection/revision cycles are going to add to the cost. Plus the amount of time it will take..the government moves very slowly...

 

[roxynoodle]

$2M might be a conservative number. Rejection/revision cycles are going to add to the cost. Plus the amount of time it will take..the government moves very slowly...

Exactly. Now if you were fairly convinced you would succeed it might be worth your while to try. However, you would soon be undercut by others who can get "equivalent" products approved easier now. Unless maybe those are your products as well.

 

[WharfRat1976]

After the defacto Federal ban of all ecig products made after 2007 I wonder what the first Fed bust of a vape supplier will be. Federal illegal vape product bust and legal case to follow. Should be a fun one to watch.

I wonder what the penalty will be.

2 years incarceration for the manufacture of liquid nicotine. If it's 100mg nic the penalty doubles.

I Would do a few weekends for possession of my beloved Stumpys[emoji3]

 

[WharfRat1976]

Possible Court injunctions pending constitutional rulings.

Fingers in the ..... Pinky fingers.

 

[JDC1958]

But, how to get a Lemo type atty through the application process? You might lose $2 million trying.

That is why I think mostly big companies will be doing this. R&D is a write off only the richest can make use of.

Here is a quote from CBS on the U.S. market:
"With $2.8 billion in sales in 2014, the U.S. accounts for about half of all global vapor sales."
Link:
The world's hottest tobacco product: Vapor smokes

This is still considered a growth market. Its like when stinkies blew up with us baby boomers. Someone will want a big piece of this. I think the below is is a tale tale sign as well of what’s to come. From the same article:

"Japan Tobacco International (JTI) earlier this year was confident enough to buy the international intellectual property rights to San Francisco-based Ploom vaporizers, MacGuill said."

 

[WharfRat1976]

That is why I think mostly big companies will be doing this. R&D is a write off only the richest can make use of.

Here is a quote from CBS on the U.S. market:
"With $2.8 billion in sales in 2014, the U.S. accounts for about half of all global vapor sales."
Link:
The world's hottest tobacco product: Vapor smokes

This is still considered a growth market. Its like when stinkies blew up with us baby boomers. Someone will want a big piece of this. I think the below is is a tale tale sign as well of what’s to come. From the same article:

"Japan Tobacco International (JTI) earlier this year was confident enough to buy the international intellectual property rights to San Francisco-based Ploom vaporizers, MacGuill said."

China Tobacco International does over $100 Billion in sales. Vaping as a whole is a gnat on their trouser cuffs.