Why is ECF full of so many people against subohming?

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DeadbeatJeff

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You will find that there are quite a few with degrees on here.

AND, I can't even imagine a .6 ohm build on a fun with so little air flow.

yeah... I have a degree too. Just not in anything relevant to electronics

I do understand what constitutes a short, though

-------------

Have had this .6 on the Fun for a couple days now. Three strands twisted 30g @ 7 wraps.

It's great. I'm even vaping 12-14mg NET (from cigar) juice.

I do have the screw completely taken out though, with air coming in the side and the screw-hole. It is a great mouth-puffer. Way too tight for lungs hits. The amount of vapor I get is actually pretty comparable to a cigar puff... I just inhale it. Is a much cooler vape on the Fun than in an rda too

Don't knock it till you've tried it.
:D
 
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DeadbeatJeff

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Hardly build above .3 anymore (since my Raptor fires .3; mechs are lower).

It's just the best vape I've found to date. By quite a wide margin.

Flavor is stellar, it's a nice warm vape, nice airy draw, and I'll admit clouding up a room is fun sometimes.

I was pretty down on vaping until I got my first RDA and went sub-ohm.

One thing people don't always realize is that there is a "hump", and once you get over it (or under it, as it were) the vape gets smoother, not harsher.
 

DeadbeatJeff

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For me, it's simple: because vaping isn't a contest to see who can vape on the lowest resistance. The level of one-upping and bragging and condescension, a prime example being in the OP, is unappealing to the extreme.

then again there are good reasons to go low aside from any of that

I find it is much cleaner
 

DeadbeatJeff

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HM. If all we need to know about sub-ohming is that a 30A battery can handle 30A pulses, then what is everyone so worried about? I don't know..... I always thought there was more to it than that.

I think an important point is "accidents"

MAYBE pulsing @ 30a is cool on s VTC4/5. maybe. Likely not in the long run, but MAYBE.

However, take what happened with my Nemie last night, on a VTC5 @0.4:

The spring actually snapped off a piece, and the little rice-pin fell out, and when I unscrewed the bottom cap the assembly completely fell apart. The bottom firing pin grounded against the body and stuck there due to electrical conduction. i.e. the coil started firing continuously, and I couldn't get it to stop for maybe (a surprised, panicky) 30sec. And, yes the coil and cotton caught on fire. If that had happened on a 0.11 build my batt could have definitely seriously had a Fn meltdown. That was not when I was firing it, but when I opened the cap to change the battery.

That happened last night, with no warning, with my 2 year odl daughter about 2 ft away.
 
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B1sh0p

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then again there are good reasons to go low aside from any of that

I find it is much cleaner

This is what people don't understand. Not every sub ohm vaper is out just to chase clouds. I chase flavor and warmth.

How many people have said they would have given up before they discovered su? ohming? If anything, people should be grateful. The advancements by the sub ohm community have revolutionized the way we vape.

It's also not as fringe as people would lead you to believe. A completely anecdotal example is that RipTrippers has nearly 30,000 more subscribers than PBusardo.
 

B1sh0p

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I think an important point is "accidents"

MAYBE pulsing @ 30a is cool on s VTC4/5. maybe. Likely not in the long run, but MAYBE.

However, take what happened with my Nemie last night, on a VTC5 @0.4:

The spring actually snapped off a piece, and the little rice-pin fell out, and when I unscrewed the bottom cap the assembly completely fell apart. The bottom firing pin grounded against the body and stuck there due to electrical conduction. i.e. the coil started firing continuously, and I couldn't get it to stop for maybe 30sec. And, yes the coil and cotton caught on fire. If that had happened on a 0.11 build my batt could have definitely seriously had a Fn meltdown. That was not when I was firing it, but when I opened the cap to change the battery.

That happened last night, with no warning, with my 2 year odl daughter about 2 ft away.

Did you throw the battery away? Was the spring that "snapped off" brass or copper? Nemesis have 2 springs.
 
Okay. I'll give an engineer, nurse and vapor's take on the matter...

I'm not against sub-ohm vaping. I *am* against the notion that Joe Newcomer with less than second hand knowledge and a few months experience should be doing it to "chase clouds". It really bothers me to see these folks building cloud machines. Sure, the basics are easy, but the risks and consequences are not. Sure, whatever works is a great line, but that ends at the point where you increase the risk of harm to others. In the present environment, harm to others includes your fellow vapers because if regulations so severely limit our ability to vape responsibly then we diminish the ability to save more lives from the known hazards of burning tobacco. That must be the most important consideration of EVERY vaper.

I get it. I really do. I run a 0.7ohm dual coil build in a Patriot daily. I've built quads down to 0.15 and done some fun things with 26 and 24ga Kanthal. I found what works for me and what's fun. I don't make the mistake of thinking that doing huge clouds is without risk to me, my devices and the image of vaping. Hence, you'll only find me pulling out the big guns in a vape shop or meet where I can be certain that the stunt is appreciated. And it *is* a stunt for me. At the very most it is friendly competition.

I've trained myself, using an incentive spirometer to "lung hit' 3 liters of vapor, I've built a couple setups that can deliver. I use 0mg 20/80 unflavored PG/VG. Why? I'm not interested in packing anything that dense with flavor or nicotine into my lungs. We *know* what the mass spectrometry / gas chromatography says about the vapor from some of the early devices. We do NOT know what the data is on these billowy clouds of flavor & nic'd juice. That's a safety issue.

It is a public relations issue too. Let some govt mule get hold of an assay of one the the clouds and find that there's 10% of the harmful stuff from cigarettes and just try to justify it to regulators that there's lower risk. They'll hear none of it because the only numbers they care about is public perception (votes). Once the headline reads "Electronic cigarettes not as safe as first thought" its over kids. We will become outcasts. Sure some of us like to think of ourselves as rebels, but the vast majority of the vaping population do not. They're just trying to stop smoking burning tobacco leaf to ward off dying of cancer or the unpleasantness of living with COPD or watching their wallet empty ever faster into the tax man's coffers. They're the ones who will be harmed and that is a safety issue.

Now add to that the fact that the FDA gets adverse event reports from the public on e-cigarettes already, including potential allergic reactions, battery explosions, burns and whatnot. Let a news story or two happen about a teenager (sorry all 18-19 year-olds you're still teenagers in the media) who does something to him or herself trying to chase clouds because they (like me at that age) think they are all 10ft tall and bullet-proof and it will start another fire storm. It won't matter if it's a mechanical issue or a poisoning issue. Witness the fire storm in NY over eliquids because an irresponsible vaper made it possible for a child to poison itself. That poses a safety risk to the community of vapors.

Now, for battery safety. I've seen the snippet of a chinese-english manual but I have not seen the whole document (I have one on order). I have looked at the published data for the Sony VTC-4 and VTC-5 and the monographs and ratings do NOT demonstrate the testing at the loads the snippet shows for long term use. As an engineer, I implicitly understand that manufacturers rate their products for performance, longevity and safety. I get it. And I know what we do with these batteries in NOT within the safe and intended use the manufacturer rates them at. I understand things like the snippet exist to give engineers like me an idea of the design limits so that if I must exceed the rated capacity of the battery I have some idea where the line ought be drawn. I want to know, for example, that if I'm using these cells to power a motorized device that must start under load that the battery is capable to handling the startup current needed to get the motor moving. But I also want to know the de-rating I must put on the minimum-time-before-failure and charge/discharge cycle times. These are not part of the snippet of information provided. That poses a safety risk to the vaping community.

I'll assume some risk personally because I have the means and experience to test both my setups and the internal resistance of the batteries I use for experimentation to be sure they're not showing signs of excess wear. It is NOT likely that most sub-ohm vapers have that knowledge, much less the means at their disposal to do so. Heck most aren't disclosing the internal resistance of their mechanical mod and atty combination. This is value that must be known if you don't want to burn your hand on a hot switch or worse, fuse the switch closed! I'm certain no-one is talking about how long a VTC-4 should be in service under the stresses we place on them. There is a limit, and once breached we do NOT know what the failure mode will be in this application. We only speculate at this time and that poses a safety risk to the vaping community.

So there are a few of the reasons that justify concern over sub-ohm vaping.

Does that mean we shouldn't do it? No.

Does it mean we should evidence more than a cavalier regard for what we're doing? Definitely YES!

VAPE SAFE, VAPE ON!

[
Disclosure:

My rig is a Stainless Steel Electric Angel clone with gold plated switch parts and a copper atty pin. The atomizers are both Patriot clones from Fasttech. Closed circuit resistance at the atty posts is 0.079 ohms (that's why my lowest build is 0.15 ohms! [That's 0.24ohms 4.2v 18.26A 76.7W]). My 18650 VTC-4's (I rotate two of them) have only been in service for approximately 30 minutes of vape time each. They have never been discharged below 3.7v. My 'daily' setup is two coils 10 wraps of #28ga Kanthal on a #50 (0.0700") drill bit (1.4 ohm per coil) wicked with cotton. The Patriot hood is drilled out with two #54 (0.0550") holes and I use AW 18650 1600mAh batteries for this configuration. The experimental Patriot hood is drilled out with 4 holes 5/32" (0.0781"). Sure there are better rigs out there but making a 3 liter vape cloud only needed this much!

I do have occasional access to a Fluke 8088A multimeter and a precision battery load center for battery/rig testing courtesy of my friends in the BioMed department of the hospital I work at. They have the setup and skill to test batteries because they have to make sure the ones we use in the machines to keep you alive won't fail :blink:.
]
 
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DeadbeatJeff

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This is what people don't understand. Not every sub ohm vaper is out just to chase clouds. I chase flavor and warmth.

How many people have said they would have given up before they discovered su? ohming? If anything, people should be grateful. The advancements by the sub ohm community have revolutionized the way we vape.

It's also not as fringe as people would lead you to believe. A completely anecdotal example is that RipTrippers has nearly 30,000 more subscribers than PBusardo.
sure, but Phill is only good for product reviews, and tech stuff a lot of people don't pay attention to.

RIP is just "BUILD THIS COIL!!!!!", and he's got the energy of a monkey on amphetemines.

Most people build coils more than they buy products. ..Yet, although I am subbed to both, I actually don't watch a lot of RIPs vids anymore... just different ways to do the same stuff at this point.
 
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DeadbeatJeff

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Did you throw the battery away? Was the spring that "snapped off" brass or copper? Nemesis have 2 springs.
The battery is fine. It was low (maybe 3.9-3.8) at the time, and on a .4 build that's not even 10a. Was a bras spring in the HCigar Copper Nemie, which as far as I know only has 1 spring.

the point is that at 0.11 that could have been a catastrophe

and I'm not saying this out of "jealousy"
 
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Nikkita6

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I am a qualified electronics engineer who abandoned his profession to chase his passion for vaping. [edited]

Not once have i seen an imr battery malfunction. Nor have i ever heard of an imr battery malfunctioning while in use.

:glare: .. Poof ... and just like that, all your credibility is lost! The above statement is more problematic than I have time to illustrate. * insert stink eye *
 

B1sh0p

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The battery is fine. It was low (maybe 3.9-3.8) at the time, and on a .4 build that's not even 10a. Was a bras spring in the HCigar Copper Nemie, which as far as I know only has 1 spring.

I've never seen a Nemesis without 2 springs and I've seen a lot. What happened was the firing pin was too loose. When you went to unscrew the button, it fell out. I highly doubt the spring broke and even if it did, the button wouldn't fall apart. People need to understand their equipment. The Nemesis works with flat tops, but was probably designed with button tops in mind. Like you said, it was an accident. Live and learn.
 

zoiDman

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:glare: .. Poof ... and just like that, all your credibility is lost! The above statement is more problematic than I have time to illustrate. * insert stink eye *

I hear you.

I have Never Seen a Toyota Suddenly and Uncontrollably Accelerate. And become a Run-A-Way Car on the Freeway. But that doesn't mean that it Has Never Happened.

What a Small World it must be if a Person Basis what Happens to Everyone Based Only on what Happens to Themselves.
 

Asbestos4004

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Cloud chase for flavor? Thats like saying you binge eat for tasting food. If you need over 12 amps to get flavor then your juice sucks. Cloud chase all day but dont tell me its for flavor

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Taste is subjective and I'm quite sure none of the cloud chasers who've posted in this thread are shaking their heads thinking "he got me there...the cats out of the bag..." I know lots of cloud chasers who prefer the flavor they get from their set ups as opposed to my regular set up. which is 1.2 ohms in a kayfun on a ProVari. I build some sub ohm drippers for fun but I like the flavor better in my kayfun. That doesn't mean they are lying or their juice sucks. It simply means they found what they like. Who cares? B1sh0p is right, vaping wouldn't be where it is today without the sub ohm crowd. I hardly ever agree with what he says on here but I'm glad he has the balls to say what he believes and in this particular thread, I can't find any good reason for everyone to jump on him...he wasn't flaming. He was disagreeing. Is that not allowed?
Personally, I don't know what the OP's intentions with this thread were. It seems like it may have been just to cause yet another riff in our community. As long as ProVape keeps making ProVari's, we'll have plenty to argue about...but what the hell is the use of this? I never see cloud chasers blowing clouds in the express line at Kroger or in the Home Depot...but there's plenty of ego's with clearos being used everywhere. Why blame everything on the hobbyists?
 

vlodato

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So your telling me vaping your juice at a (compared to most users) extreme temperature taste best? I just think maybe adjusting his juice might be more helpfull then vaping a .5ohms. I like them 1-2 ohm 10-11 watt range. Again im not trying to insult. But i feel like people do it for fun which is fine. To say juice tastes best at over 20 watts is not normal imo.

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Asbestos4004

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So your telling me vaping your juice at a (compared to most users) extreme temperature taste best? I just think maybe adjusting his juice might be more helpfull then vaping a .5ohms. I like them 1-2 ohm 10-11 watt range. Again im not trying to insult. But i feel like people do it for fun which is fine. To say juice tastes best at over 20 watts is not normal imo.

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Read my post. No, I'm not saying MY juice tastes better at extreme temps. I'm saying that's how THEY think it tastes best. I like mine the way I like mine...1.2 in a kayfun. That doesn't make everyone else in the world wrong, does it? If I vaped your set up, I might hate it...therefore you should be hung by your ankles in the square....left there for all the townfolk to belittle. Some people think cold pizza tastes better than hot pizza. Do they eat it that way because it's "fun" or so people will think they're cool? No, they do it because they like it and because they want too. I've burned the roof of my mouth on pizza the way you probably like it....you're ruining pizza for everyone because pizza because more people will be hurt if they eat it the way you do.
 

ScandaLeX

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:glare: .. Poof ... and just like that, all your credibility is lost! The above statement is more problematic than I have time to illustrate. * insert stink eye *

Damnnnnnnn I wish you had time. I can literally hear what you'd say in my head. **double foot stomp** !!

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ScandaLeX

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I've never seen a Nemesis without 2 springs and I've seen a lot. What happened was the firing pin was too loose. When you went to unscrew the button, it fell out. I highly doubt the spring broke and even if it did, the button wouldn't fall apart. People need to understand their equipment. The Nemesis works with flat tops, but was probably designed with button tops in mind. Like you said, it was an accident. Live and learn.

Are we talking authentic or clone cause I have seen one with one spring--it was a clone.

Sent from a BIG phone.....Galaxy Note 3
 

ScandaLeX

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Cloud chase for flavor? Thats like saying you binge eat for tasting food. If you need over 12 amps to get flavor then your juice sucks. Cloud chase all day but dont tell me its for flavor

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LOL! I could hug you.

Sent from a BIG phone.....Galaxy Note 3
 
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