Wizard Labs Nic Base Reviews

[wolcen]

Per the organic, it turns out I was correct: don't read more into the label than what is there.

The term Organic is used on our site as a chemical classification, and not to be confused with Organically Grown, or Certified Organic as used with foods.
When we were first setting up shop last year and building the site descriptions there was a lot of discussion in the industry regarding some vendors claiming to use synthetic nicotine which was being billed as superior to organic nicotine.
That was what prompted us to label ours an an organic extract for clarification.
Nowhere on our site is any mention of organically grown tobacco or certified organic products. (although the menthol crystals we carry are from Mountain Rose and they are certified organic)

Per the USP documentation: no certification here, and at this point I'm trying to educate myself in order to get further clarification here. It seems the information presented on ECF (that I've read so far at least) appears either incorrect or at the very least incomplete.

To the best of my understanding, there are "USP Verified" logos that may only be used for products that have been submitted for testing. These are not the logos in use here or on several other vendor websites. If you look on the USP site, there are in fact very few items listed as having this.

USP labeling on products defines that the product meets (or exceeds) the purity or other guidelines defined for the products by USP. The label in and of itself is not a "certification". What Wizard Labs receives (from an outside lab - they don't do the nicotine manufacturing) is itself labeled USP.

For what it's worth, the USP does operate internationally - to an extent - and itself has international offices, including in India, China, and Brazil.

 

[Rocketman]

What is the minimum purity for nicotine to meet USP (USP30) Standards?
What is the minimum purity for nicotine to meet European (EP6) Standards?


Does someone at USP certify nicotine?
What does the USP field office in China do?
http://www.usp.org/around-world/usp-sites/usp-china

Can nicotine produced in the U.K., China, or India be certified to meet USP purity levels?
and lastly, can nicotine be purified to a better level than minimum USP levels?

If the FDA is involved (nicotine, glycerin, or propylene glycol), do they certify foreign manufacturers?
Does the FDA have a presence in China?
http://www.fda.gov/InternationalPrograms/FDABeyondOurBordersForeignOffices/China/default.htm

 

[wolcen]

@Rocketman: Hope your not asking me all those questions! LOL. I don't know ANY of the answers for fact. (For the very first, one vendor claims it is 999mg/ml.)

What I do know is that I have no reason to believe John has misrepresented anything at all here. He has been very direct in response to every inquiry I've made. His emails are thoughtful and - I believe - honest (very early on, he even suggested I look at less expensive product because he knew it would work better).

 

[Rocketman]

They are easy to look up .

I too believe John.

Seems to know his facts

 

[LookMa`NoSmoK]

Less expensive than WL? get out...

About the organic thing, I don't believe I have heard of synthetic nic in my 'somewhat' extensive search of a nic vendor. So I do feel somewhat 'fooled', if I were to be honest. Nevertheless (that's actually one word, lol) bah, forgot what I was gonna say...

 

[casey8579]

Per the USP documentation: no certification here, and at this point I'm trying to educate myself in order to get further clarification here. It seems the information presented on ECF (that I've read so far at least) appears either incorrect or at the very least incomplete.

To the best of my understanding, there are "USP Verified" logos that may only be used for products that have been submitted for testing. These are not the logos in use here or on several other vendor websites. If you look on the USP site, there are in fact very few items listed as having this.

USP labeling on products defines that the product meets (or exceeds) the purity or other guidelines defined for the products by USP. The label in and of itself is not a "certification". What Wizard Labs receives (from an outside lab - they don't do the nicotine manufacturing) is itself labeled USP.

For what it's worth, the USP does operate internationally - to an extent - and itself has international offices, including in India, China, and Brazil.

Thanks for the info. I also read about the USP verified logos on the USP site, but so far have not found out what, if any, requirements a company has to meet to just put the letters USP on the label. Such as "Pure Glycerin USP" without the verified logo.

If you find out more I would like to hear it.

 

[Rocketman]

There are several 'chemical' methods to extract nicotine. Most of them sound scary to me. It's not only the non nicotine in the tobacco that needs to be removed but also processing chemicals. Absolutely pure nicotine can have a yellow tint immediately after processing. Being water clear is not an acceptable analytical method to determine purity. Pure nicotine has a smell, and not a pleasant {to most) smell. Once diluted to 10%, or less, the color and odor is less. Don't be misled by Quality Control statements that depend on the human sense of sight, smell, or taste instead of analytical results.





I think many vapors would be surprised at the minimum purity to 'meet' USP requirements for nicotine. The final purity, i.e. 99.x% is less important than analysis for harmful contaminants. The test methods, and reference standards are listed in the current USP, and EP monographs.
The 'USP verified' program is voluntary but stating a product 'meets USP grade' only requires testing of the final product by a 'certifying laboratory'. The lab performs the 'certification' per the applicable USP Monograph. Implying that only U.S. manufacturer can claim USP Grade or FDA certification is misleading.

The FDA is the controlling authority for nicotine, VG, and PG produced either domestically or imported. The FDA also registers and inspects foreign manufacturing facilities producing products intended for the U.S. In the U.S. FDA registration isn't always performed by FDA officials but by 'agents for hire', and by mail at that. Subsequent 'issues' can trigger an on-site official inspection.

 

[Leothwyn]

Less expensive than WL? get out...

About the organic thing, I don't believe I have heard of synthetic nic in my 'somewhat' extensive search of a nic vendor. So I do feel somewhat 'fooled', if I were to be honest. Nevertheless (that's actually one word, lol) bah, forgot what I was gonna say...

I agree... I've spent my share of time browsing (and spending to much) DIY supplies from various vendors, and reading forums. I've never seen anyone selling synthetic nic.. Seems like it can be taken for granted that the nic that we get from the usual DIY suppliers is not synthetic. I thought for sure that 'organic' must refer to something else. It's no big deal to me that the nic isn't grown or extracted organically, but it does seem misleading calling it organic. Clearly I'm not the only one.

 

[wolcen]

I think many vapors would be surprised at the minimum purity to 'meet' USP requirements for nicotine.

Are you not allowed to share that number? I don't have $850 to purchase the USP-NF.

The final purity, i.e. 99.x% is less important than analysis for harmful contaminants.

Exactly. Contaminant could be anything from water to e.g. arsenic.

The 'USP verified' program is voluntary but stating a product 'meets USP grade' only requires testing of the final product by a 'certifying laboratory'. The lab performs the 'certification' per the applicable USP Monograph. Implying than only U.S. manufacturer can claim USP Grade or FDA certification is misleading.

Reading things outside of ECF finally gave me this understanding. There most certainly are very misleading statements within this forum.

Thanks Rocketman.

 

[wolcen]

I agree... I've spent my share of time browsing (and spending to much) DIY supplies from various vendors, and reading forums. I've never seen anyone selling synthetic nic.. Seems like it can be taken for granted that the nic that we get from the usual DIY suppliers is not synthetic. I thought for sure that 'organic' must refer to something else. It's no big deal to me that the nic isn't grown or extracted organically, but it does seem misleading calling it organic. Clearly I'm not the only one.

Yeah - I can understand being disappointed, and it does seem pointless to have the term present - perhaps he will reconsider as a result. It does seem that most know (now anyway) that the nicotine we use comes from tobacco.

For what it's worth though, in my request to John, he was fully aware my question was to address questions on ECF. It would have been easy enough to ignore my inquiry, but he responded rather quickly.

I think his answer spells things out pretty clearly, and my take on the answer in context is that he didn't feel there was anything to hide here.

 

[Leothwyn]

Based on my few emails with John and the experience of others here, I'd assume that he wasn't trying to be misleading... but to me it was anyway. Oh well, no big deal.

 

[buffaloguy]

Not sure if it was already linked too but there is a very informative thread on ecf regarding synthetic nicotine here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nthetic-nicotine-there-really-such-thing.html

It seems that it was invented in the 60's to 70's but apparently never mass produced. While I understand the confusion on the term "organic" most organic products arent truly organic anyways unless you are growing them yourself in a controlled enviornment. Even organic chicken aint truly organic folks! I stopped buying it years ago after reading a report on it.

To WL's credit John has always been extremely helpful and has the patience and customer service attitude of a saint. Last week his shopping cart system broke down, orders got backlogged, and he and his staff shipped out my package at 2am. Ill have it today, ordered on thursday. It wasnt shipped till saturday. I trust his honesty and work ethic and will continue to order from them.

 

[casey8579]

First let me say that I have the highest respect for John/Wizard Labs concerning his products and his business practices. I am sorry that this discussion is taken by some to reflect on Wizard Labs. My participation was not intended to do so, it just happened to be in this thread that I came across the subject of interest, USP rating, and joined in.

Perhaps someone could split of this part of the thread?

There are several 'chemical' methods to extract nicotine. Most of them sound scary to me. It's not only the non nicotine in the tobacco that needs to be removed but also processing chemicals. Absolutely pure nicotine can have a yellow tint immediately after processing. Being water clear is not an acceptable analytical method to determine purity. Pure nicotine has a smell, and not a pleasant {to most) smell. Once diluted to 10%, or less, the color and odor is less. Don't be misled by Quality Control statements that depend on the human sense of sight, smell, or taste instead of analytical results.





I think many vapors would be surprised at the minimum purity to 'meet' USP requirements for nicotine. The final purity, i.e. 99.x% is less important than analysis for harmful contaminants. The test methods, and reference standards are listed in the current USP, and EP monographs.
The 'USP verified' program is voluntary but stating a product 'meets USP grade' only requires testing of the final product by a 'certifying laboratory'. The lab performs the 'certification' per the applicable USP Monograph. Implying that only U.S. manufacturer can claim USP Grade or FDA certification is misleading.

The FDA is the controlling authority for nicotine, VG, and PG produced either domestically or imported. The FDA also registers and inspects foreign manufacturing facilities producing products intended for the U.S. In the U.S. FDA registration isn't always performed by FDA officials but by 'agents for hire', and by mail at that. Subsequent 'issues' can trigger an on-site official inspection.

Thanks Rocketman.

As I understand it, If a manufacturer uses USP in their labeling they stand ready to prove their compliance with the applicable monograph. If there is a question or problem with a product or manufacturer, the FDA does the enforcing.
Does that sound about right?

From a couple of documents I read:

Similarly, the USP states that “The designation USP in conjunction
with the official title or elsewhere on the label of an
article means that the article purports to comply with USP standards…”

USP General Notices and General Test Chapters Interpretations and Misinterpretations

Enforcement of USP standards is the responsibility of FDA
and other government authorities in the U.S. and elsewhere.
USP has no role in enforcement

USP34-NF29General Notices

With all this in consideration, it still gives me more comfort in buying a product that is labeled USP, than buying one that is not.

 

[wolcen]

As I understand it, If a manufacturer uses USP in their labeling they stand ready to prove their compliance with the applicable monograph. If there is a question or problem with a product or manufacturer, the FDA does the enforcing.
Does that sound about right?

I wonder if that also applies to the "ingredients list". We're not purchasing pure nicotine, we're purchasing non-USP nic juice (I'm sure there's no USP for nic juice itself - yet anyway) that contains USP nic, USP VG, USP PG, etc.

 

[casey8579]

I wonder if that also applies to the "ingredients list". We're not purchasing pure nicotine, we're purchasing non-USP nic juice (I'm sure there's no USP for nic juice itself - yet anyway) that contains USP nic, USP VG, USP PG, etc.

For the mixed ejuice we buy, as long as the supplier uses USP nic, USP VG and USP PG thats the best I can hope for to assure quality of the product in the bottle I buy. As you said I'm sure there is no USP monograph for the end product "ejuice"

 

[Rocketman]

For the mixed ejuice we buy, as long as the supplier uses USP nic, USP VG and USP PG thats the best I can hope for to assure quality of the product in the bottle I buy. As you said I'm sure there is no USP monograph for the end product "ejuice"

Correct, for now.
The FDA has put very stringent controls on Glycerin, and Propylene glycol. The applies to sealed containers, shipping and distribution, and repackaging for sale. Even Chinese VG and PG must meet these requirements when imported. The foreign source must be FDA approved for USP VG,PG to be released. The trick I've heard some have tried is to declare the shipment to be something with less stringent requirements to beat customs inspectors.

I feel the two primary benefits to DIY e-juice is knowing what goes in to it and cost. Nicotine that goes into e-juice must be tested for impurities. Every batch. The extraction process should be mature and stable with very few 'bad batches'.
VG/PG must come from USP bulk. Trust the re-packer to do his best.

From what little I know about nicotine extraction and organic chemistry, the main difference between the most practical methods used are in the type of acids and organic solvents used to extract and concentrate the nicotine.
I think it's the 'organic' materials used to extract the nicotine and not the organic tobacco used that John's source is referring to

 

[casey8579]

What is the minimum purity for nicotine to meet USP (USP30) Standards?
What is the minimum purity for nicotine to meet European (EP6) Standards?

If you know the answers to these, would you share? I have been unable to find them.

 

[Rocketman]

You could contact a qualified vendor. They could e-mail their lab which could look up the test procedures, limit for contaminants, and the range of purities that meet the USP monograph for L-Nicotine, CAS 54-11-5.

Or, you could just guess

 

[wolcen]

You could contact a qualified vendor. They could e-mail their lab which could look up the test procedures, limit for contaminants, and the range of purities that meet the USP monograph for L-Nicotine, CAS 54-11-5.

Or, you could just guess

If that's your definition of "easy to look up", we very different levels of motivation

In my search for any vendor having proof of USP status of their nicotine, one of them had made the comment:

"...you are buying from John at wizard.labs and he is a great guy and has a great product.

You must be doing something right if even your competitors are open to complimenting you.

 

[wolcen]

Thanks to my sweetheart for helping me find this (she used to be a Pharmacy Tech):

L-Nicotine(CAS:54-11-5) | U.S. Pharmacopoeia USP30