The Diketone free tested vendors list

[morningdew]

What do folks make of nJoys artist collection testing, specifically they state diacetyl and AP free but no mention of acetoin.

I ask as I love the Hedons Bite on occasion as a change from nets, but avoid any juice that isn't tested for at least diacetyl, AP and acetoin.

I did mail njoy re. Acetoin but got no reply.

 

[AngiBe]

What do folks make of nJoys artist collection testing, specifically they state diacetyl and AP news but no mention of acetoin.

I ask as I love the Hedons Bite on occasion as a change from nets, but avoid any juice that isn't tested for at least diacetylmorphine, AP and acetoin.

I did mail nJoys re. Acetoin but got no reply.

If you get an answer, please post here. I agree, it all should be tested

 

[Mazinny]

What do folks make of nJoys artist collection testing, specifically they state diacetyl and AP free but no mention of acetoin.

I ask as I love the Hedons Bite on occasion as a change from nets, but avoid any juice that isn't tested for at least diacetyl, AP and acetoin.

I did mail nJoy re. Acetoin but got no reply.

I am pretty confident that they are as safe a liquid as there is in the market given their size and long term aspirations in this market. Smokey Joe the ECF founder stated in a post somewhere that they went through a rigorous process to insure there is not even the tiniest trace of diketones in their liquid. And they have been tested by Vaporshark as well as doing their own test.

I don't know if their liquid contains acetoin or not, but acetoin is not a diketone. From what I have read, Dr. Kistler and Dr. Farsalinos have said that there is no evidence currently that would find acetoin nearly as troublesome as AP and Diacetyl. High amounts of acetoin could lead to trace amounts of Diacetyl though, especially if the acetoin is not pure. My understanding anyway.

 

[Sirius]

The reality is we really DON'T know host testing is being done - and we can't reliably say any one party is doing it better than another.

That's not unique to vaping and it will continue to be a problem as growing pains work themselves out. I'm surprised companies haven't considered all the possibilities at play here:

• Bad manufacturing and cross-contamination batch to batch
• Diacetyl forms in fermentation and other processes in beer for example, so maybe something similar happens on the shelf here?
• The process could happen within the flavors themselves - before juice use
• Etc.

And who knows what some of these labs do given how many stories are out there about bad labs in all sorts of fields.

It's just a little depressing we won't REALLY know for some years .. and that SUCKS. -Mags

Mags..Thanks for that. I mentioned this very thing on another thread and someone (troll) popped in with,.."Alchemy flew out with the Middle Ages". Or something to that effect.
I know for certain chemical reactions happen. This needs to be applied in the long term, and one reason I don't steep as long as some do.

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

 

[MagnusEunson]

This needs to be applied in the long term, and one reason I don't steep as long as some do.

Some people like to troll - and if we know, which we do, that things like https://www.google.com/search?q=acetoin+conversion+to+diacetyl happen in certain conditions. And if we know, which we do, that come flavorings are extracts. And if we also know, which we do, that fermentation and oxidation happen (heck that latter is what steeping bloody well really is otherwise a good shake is what you need)...

I just think it's not as easy as going flavor profile + nicotine and that's it. I especially think, based on what I've seen so called 'lab environment' mixing do that contamination along the way is a very real possibility.

There is one popular vendor who posts proudly about their standards and I visited them and I watched in amazement as an employee, while vaping, after just having had pizza with me, in a vape filled 'clean' room started mixing me a few smaller bottles. It didn't bother ~me~ but 'clean' room it was not.

It's not to say some claims are absurd - I'm also not suggesting it's randomly common.

I'm just saying that the # of things that can go wrong from here --> there is a lot more than "ZOMG THEY ARE LIARS FROM HELL!" ..

-Mags

 

[MagnusEunson]

This is why I tested Halo Tribeca myself.
And thanks to AngiBe for going in on that with me.

ORLY?! Who did you use for the lab service?

I've debated doing this on a few myself recently just to get an idea of exactly how full of excrement some custard vape makers must be ..

I joked in another thread we should spin up a company "Ohm's Raw" of pure VG maybe with a touch of distilled water and just label it all different flavors. People imagine flavors for the most part I'm convinced.

-Mags

 

[Gauntlgrym]

I am not aware of any vendors that disputed Vaporshark results besides Cyclops on one juice only.

well you can't forget 5pawns can you? they were VERY upset with the results. VS no longer carries them though.
i'm also pretty sure that cosmic fog disputed one or two. saw it in a blog of theirs.
also, cyclops only made a fuss about one, but ALL the numbers cyclops posted we lower than what VS tests showed (other than the ones that were ND)

i also took it upon myself to email a few of the companies that VS sells, and asked them if their eliquid has D/AP in it (already knowing the answer). some replied "no, none of our eliquids contain diacetyl or ap"......even though according to the VS tests they do.

From the vendors that self publish I find the results of those who show nd across the board more trustworthy, especially if the limits of detection are low ( 1 ppm ). It shows that having diketone free liquids is a company policy and that liquids have been designed with that in mind. There has been internal testing even before 3rd party testing to confirm.

see i look at a company that posts all ND results, and i think it's a little fishy....not more trustworthy.
like really?? you just happened to create all theses liquids and not a single on has any D/AP what-so-ever?

take charlie noble for example. most of the line is D/AP free, but a couple here and there have very low amounts. like 5-12ug or something. that seems a little more trustworthy than "yup we are 100% nd across the board. no discrepancies at all, we made them perfect."

 

[Luninariel]

well you can't forget 5pawns can you? they were VERY upset with the results. VS no longer carries them though.
i'm also pretty sure that cosmic fog disputed one or two. saw it in a blog of theirs.
also, cyclops only made a fuss about one, but ALL the numbers cyclops posted we lower than what VS tests showed (other than the ones that were ND)

i also took it upon myself to email a few of the companies that VS sells, and asked them if their eliquid has D/AP in it (already knowing the answer). some replied "no, none of our eliquids contain diacetyl or ap"......even though according to the VS tests they do.



see i look at a company that posts all ND results, and i think it's a little fishy....not more trustworthy.
like really?? you just happened to create all theses liquids and not a single on has any D/AP what-so-ever?

take charlie noble for example. most of the line is D/AP free, but a couple here and there have very low amounts. like 5-12ug or something. that seems a little more trustworthy than "yup we are 100% nd across the board. no discrepancies at all, we made them perfect."

It could just be the amount of work, or dedication they take. Heck there's a website 100% dedicated to never using anything harmful outside of nicotine (Cleanvape) I think Vaporshark is a good metric for gathering who has what since they stand to gain no benefit/loss from reporting what the liquids themselves contain, They sell and report.

The bigger issue lies in the smaller companies, that homebrew, or don't test at all. I can believe more commercial companies can stand to work till they have 100% clean across the board, but what about people that just have a ton of flavors (Mech Sauce, MT Baker Vapor, Alice in Vapeland) that just dispense tons of different flavors with no lab results at all?

Claiming you have 100% ND and then someone finding out you do? That's Slander.

Not claiming it at all? That's legal in a non-regulated enviornment.

 

[MagnusEunson]

The bigger issue lies in the smaller companies, that homebrew, or don't test at all. I can believe more commercial companies can stand to work till they have 100% clean across the board, but what about people that just have a ton of flavors (Mech Sauce, MT Baker Vapor, Alice in Vapeland) that just dispense tons of different flavors with no lab results at all?

I don't expect everyone to test every batch as some vendors (one at least) is stating. However, if you've been selling more than a handful of bottles a week for a while, testing a GIVEN formulation (and then announcing if you CHANGE it) isn't unreasonable even for small vendors.

Let's say you take the retail pricing for testing from Nude Nicotine - which is presumably higher than direct to lab testing - and do the "Diketone Trio Analysis" at $125 .. how bad is that really?

Alternatively, if we don't self regulate .. how bad is THAT going to be in the end for the same small vendors?

Claiming you have 100% ND and then someone finding out you do? That's Slander.

How is that slander? Libel and slander are baseless - if someone ~tests~ and has findings, you'd be hard pressed to make that a slander case. You might get an injunction but a win? Nah.

-Mags

 

[AngiBe]

I'm a bit confused on the whole VaporShark testing. They decided to independently have various juices tested on their own? I've never bought anything from them, but do like the idea they show some test results. I think it's a step in the right direction.

 

[Vapntime]

So, I understand the whole diketone avoidance thing but what about the other chemicals that haven't yet been studied for their risk to inhalation? What about the trace amounts of solvents found in the flavors from manufacture? Is there really a safe way to inhale current flavors diketone free or not?

 

[MagnusEunson]

I'm a bit confused on the whole VaporShark testing. They decided to independently have various juices tested on their own?

Yep - it's a smart business move. The obvious incentive is that ppl are talking, trust VS more, and they are getting ahead of the regulatory curve. Also, like a COSTCO or Sam's, they don't mind the rise in potential regulations (cost) as much because they're already sized to absorb the blow. In a sense they're setting themselves up to eliminate some of the competition (that can't as readily absorb inventory testing).

I'm not saying they're playing that card - but either way it goes, they're now well ahead of the curve.

So, I understand the whole diketone avoidance thing but what about the other chemicals that haven't yet been studied for their risk to inhalation? What about the trace amounts of solvents found in the flavors from manufacture? Is there really a safe way to inhale current flavors diketone free or not?

We don't know but places like Nude Nicotine are adding more and more tests, keeping track of developments, etc.

What we know with almost dead on balls certainty is that vaping whatever we're vaping is not as dangerous as inhaling combustion byproducts day in and out.

The rest of the road is continuing risk reduction .. -Mags

 

[Vapntime]

We don't know but places like Nude Nicotine are adding more and more tests, keeping track of developments, etc.

I love Nude Nicotine

The rest of the road is continuing risk reduction .. -Mags

Then why inhale diketone free e-liquid.

 

[MagnusEunson]

Then why inhale diketone free e-liquid.

I'm not following - are you saying if we're not confident in no risk, why reduce risk at all? You can't be saying that? Please clarify.

We know now diketones are bad news.

We also know that Butyric acid potentially amplifies that but alone seems OK.

Obviously we know a lot about the metals involved too now.

We improve, move, improve .. don't go back to smoking, drop to 0 nic, bail entirely if you can. And be done with all the additional risk. -Mags

 

[Vapntime]

Diketone free e-liquid still carries risk - yes? Why not go all the way ...unflavored = least amount of risk? I am an ex smoker who started vaping because the effects of nicotine help me in my day to day life. However, least risk - chewing nicotine gum, patches didn't give me the same effects as lung inhalation. Hence, I became a vaper. After 2 years I decided to reduce known risk i.e vape unflavored. Diketone free juice is only a part of the way (noted). However, its being used in the industry as a safety call (e-liquid is now safe). Diketone free juice is a just a smart business move as you have already alluded too.

 

[MagnusEunson]

Diketone free e-liquid still carries risk - yes? Why not go all the way ...unflavored = least amount of risk?

OHH .. That's what I'm vaping at the moment and I started a thread https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/who-vapes-unflavored.704091/ about it ..

I found Nude Nicotine to be good for unflavored, no peppery lingering taste.

More broadly I'm interested in the industry wholly and occasionally dabbling in flavors at this point. -Mags

 

[Vapntime]

Cool, all good then

Same, Nude Nicotine best I have found and they also test their VG and PG as well. I'm like you it seems I just have an interest in how this vaping thing is all moving along considering we are the guinea pigs.

 

[Gauntlgrym]

I'm a bit confused on the whole VaporShark testing. They decided to independently have various juices tested on their own? I've never bought anything from them, but do like the idea they show some test results. I think it's a step in the right direction.

Vapor Shark sells many different eliquid brands. (including their own)
well, they test every eliquid that they sell. they claim to believe in transparency, and say the consumer deserves to know whats going into their lungs.

some eliquids on the site are not tested, but that's only because they are new in their lineup. they will be tested.

 

[Racehorse]

see i look at a company that posts all ND results, and i think it's a little fishy....

Not at all.

Many flavorings and/or ejuice concoctions don't have DAP.

You can DIY tons of them. Take a vendor like Halo. Mostly menthol and minty flavorings in their line. Not surprised no DAP there.

If you are emailing companies in order to purchase their product, and they state that even w/testing, their eliquids are DAP free, and yet are testing for DAP, then I'd say they are going to have problems down the line. Consumers have a right to know what they are purchasing and putting into their bodies, and it ain't about advertising copy.






.

 

[AngiBe]

Vapor Shark sells many different eliquid brands. (including their own)
well, they test every eliquid that they sell. they claim to believe in transparency, and say the consumer deserves to know whats going into their lungs.

some eliquids on the site are not tested, but that's only because they are new in their lineup. they will be tested.

Wow..this is very cool and glad they stepped up to the plate and did this. Looks like I will be adding them to my list of vendors to buy juice from.