Am I the only person who has a problem with ppl making juice in their homes?

[Burner52]

What is hugely different between making vape juice or baking some cupcakes in your kitchen? I think the restaurant example mentioned by another poster is a good one- the kitchens of some restaurants let alone fast food places are probably less sterile than mixing juice in your clean kitchen to vape. I do think ejuice sellers should be held to a sanitization and purity standard- similar to food sellers. (btw food sellers are allowed a certain amount of impurities, I learned this in my administrative law class).

 

[bluecat]

I guess what I'm getting at is that if a Mom and Pop shop could only sell FDA approved liquids from Big Tobacco, how would they stay in business?

Like many other businesses. Put a whole lot of money in as a startup and hope they can reap the benefit. They may lose the first couple years, but make up for it in years 2 or 3 +.

Not every successful business made a profit their first year.

 

[Burner52]

Somehow I think if Marlboro as an example put a e liquid called Marlboro Classic Tobacco Juice on the shelf it would sell very well and probably out perform other liquids on sales volume due to name recognition. I'm sure Phillip Morris will be happy to fill our tanks.

I'd have no problem with with Camel or Marlboro making juices if they were made with real tobacco extracts- and in theory they would have the resources to get higher tech equipment and make clean, good quality juice. If it was "tobacco flavored" artificial stuff I would'nt want it.

 

[bluecat]

I will admit that old ingredients might be had on the cheap.
But would anyone buy them beyond once? And would they hurt you or just suck?

I think they would just suck, but not hurt anyone.
And there would be no repeat buyers, hence end of their business.

In other words, it won't work.

I guess I am just having trouble seeing how or why anyone would put anything into our liquids that would cause harm.
I am not against the concept that it's possible, just that I don't see it happening.

I had a two year old bottle sitting on my workbench. No sunlight or heat hits it. It wasn't bad at all. No clue who or when I got it just had 8/12 by me written on the bottle.

I can't argue with that. I have tried a bunch of sucky liquids a couple years ago. They are still in business. One of the bottles after 6 months had brown stuff hardened on the side of it.

I don't have the answer. It is good we are discussing it though.

 

[Altaire Versailles]

Man if anybody tries to come between me and my Gambit I'm calling Liam Neeson. He knows how to get things back no prob.

 

[stevegmu]

I understand, and concur with "will be regulated.

I do not understand the wording of "should be regulated."

Much of this this thread seems to be arguing for "should be regulated" and thank God there are many others before me on this thread that have countered that notion. I strongly believe that regulations will keep growing and keeping getting hyped up.

Let's say all 50 of us agree on 'reasonable regulations' for safety concerns. I see a group of 200 coming along and saying, 'yeah, you all don't know what you are even talking about. Here's the science that shows why more regulations are necessary.' Some of our 50 will defect from the 'reasonable regulations' we came up with and join the group of 200+ that has seemingly more accuracy in their list of 'reasonable regulations.' Then a group of 1000 will come along ad say, 'yeah, your little club has very little understanding of the micro-science involved in this. And your faulty regulations reflect this. Here's the latest and greatest list of 'reasonable regulations.' And then 10,000 will come along and ....

Vaping industry has had abundant opportunity to self regulate, and has, for various reasons, dropped the ball. There's some of that going on, but not enough to deal with the 100,000 that WILL come along to 'reasonably regulate' vaping, FDA style. Here on ECF, all 4,000 of us may think that is a crock and despise what FDA is up to. But, I'm pretty sure we are way outnumbered by the million plus that sees it simply as "FDA is looking out for us." And who will see threads like this and read all the way up to page three to realize, even vapers know what they've been inhaling isn't safe. Surely they agree with the FDA's attempt at 'reasonable regulations.'

It's funny how in the Golden Era of vaping there were all of what, maybe 3, known incidences of people harmed from vaping. I'm very confident in the 'reasonable regulated' world of vaping, with the many sterile labs that will exist (or must exist) that there will be dozens of known incidences. A generation from now, they'll be wondering how we were able to make such great products with such a minute level of incidences.

There is a lot of ignorance concerning vaping- mostly, it seems from people trying to make some quick money off of new vapers. Look at all the posts where people have said B&Ms are selling sub ohm kits to people who have no idea how to use them. I really don't care about that, however, but I don't want to buy some 100 mg. e-nic from one of these pop up B&Ms who were too cheap or ignorant to test or properly dilute nic. I can understand a board of health certificate on the local/state level and ingredients list on the federal level- not every ingredient, but as food products are labeled. Certain known bad substances should be banned and vendors should submit an analysis of their e-liquids to show their flavors don't contain them. If it costs $250 per flavor, so be it.

 

[Jman8]

<snip>... but I don't want to buy some 100 mg. e-nic from one of these pop up B&Ms who were too cheap or ignorant to test or properly dilute nic. I can understand a board of health certificate on the local/state level and ingredients list on the federal level- not every ingredient, but as food products are labeled. Certain known bad substances should be banned and vendors should submit an analysis of their e-liquids to show their flavors don't contain them. If it costs $250 per flavor, so be it.

Certain known bad substances? Like nicotine?
I realize you probably didn't mean nicotine, but if going in the direction of "should be" then there won't be too many detractors from "should be limited." And that limitation likely won't be left up to the 'nicotine addict' but to the 'progressive scientist' who has already informed everyone that nicotine is bad/highly addictive.

I realize you probably did mean item like diacetyl. Yet, I'm in camp that says this shouldn't be banned, but left up to the consumer. Perhaps there are other items you meant and I'm interested in hearing what those may be. Still don't think vendors 'should' submit analysis, though I recognize we are moving to a vaping world where that likely will occur. I prefer the one we have now where consumers get to choose if they want to purchase products from vendors that do, or don't, submit analysis. I also think if consumer really wants that information, they can pay for that cost. If it costs $250 per flavor, so be it.

 

[Tangaroav]

Certain known bad substances? Like nicotine?
I realize you probably didn't mean nicotine, but if going in the direction of "should be" then there won't be too many detractors from "should be limited." And that limitation likely won't be left up to the 'nicotine addict' but to the 'progressive scientist' who has already informed everyone that nicotine is bad/highly addictive.

I realize you probably did mean item like diacetyl. Yet, I'm in camp that says this shouldn't be banned, but left up to the consumer. Perhaps there are other items you meant and I'm interested in hearing what those may be. Still don't think vendors 'should' submit analysis, though I recognize we are moving to a vaping world where that likely will occur. I prefer the one we have now where consumers get to choose if they want to purchase products from vendors that do, or don't, submit analysis. I also think if consumer really wants that information, they can pay for that cost. If it costs $250 per flavor, so be it.

I beg to differ. I think vendor must get analysis of the e-liquid they sell. As you say it only cost $250 per flavor. Substances higher that the daily safety limit should clearly be indicated on their label. As Dr. F. indicated if those chemicals are avoidable they should not be there to start with.

With all due respect, I'm afraid that what you are proposing is a recipe for disaster. IMO, there are no valid or logical reasons for keeping avoidable high risk chemicals in our e-liquid. This is exactly the kind of behavior the ANTZ are looking for to bury us in rules and bans and punitive taxes ....etc. I am very much afraid they the ANTZ are winning.

 

[stevegmu]

Certain known bad substances? Like nicotine?
I realize you probably didn't mean nicotine, but if going in the direction of "should be" then there won't be too many detractors from "should be limited." And that limitation likely won't be left up to the 'nicotine addict' but to the 'progressive scientist' who has already informed everyone that nicotine is bad/highly addictive.

I realize you probably did mean item like diacetyl. Yet, I'm in camp that says this shouldn't be banned, but left up to the consumer. Perhaps there are other items you meant and I'm interested in hearing what those may be. Still don't think vendors 'should' submit analysis, though I recognize we are moving to a vaping world where that likely will occur. I prefer the one we have now where consumers get to choose if they want to purchase products from vendors that do, or don't, submit analysis. I also think if consumer really wants that information, they can pay for that cost. If it costs $250 per flavor, so be it.

No, not nicotine, diacetyl. It doesn't seem unreasonable e-liquid would be regulated akin to food...

 

[AndriaD]

Yes, food is regulated... yet there are always stories about salmonella and e-coli contaminating it... I'm with whoever said that those regulations are just CYA for businesses, but don't really *protect* anyone. You want protection? Have it all inspected by a rabbi, and pronounced kosher!

No, I'm not jewish, but the inspection and blessing of the food by the rabbi was one of mankind's first attempts to "regulate" the food supply, and it worked extremely well -- one reason the jews were always getting blamed for plagues was that by and large, they did not get sick -- because of superior hygiene, and eating kosher food.

Andria

 

[stevegmu]

Foreign contaminants are a different story than hazardous ingredients...

 

[AndriaD]

Foreign contaminants are a different story than hazardous ingredients...

That's true. It would need to be a very scientific rabbi.

Andria

 

[Wow1420]

I have not read the whole thread, but I searched for AEMSA and found no mention. Some vendors are voluntarily working to self regulate their industry.

AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

 

[Fictitious Character]

My guess yes, only FDA approved liquids and/or licensed vendors. Heck buy a license to sell anything.

I have to buy 3 licenses every year for my profession.

I buy four. One for the state and three city. Got to pay for those new roads somehow.

Some extreme viewpoints expressed in this this thread. Even have stirring juice with an .... thermometer lol

Regulations is mostly a money game but health and safety is something that is necessary to some degree. It is a fine line between being protected and being over regulated.

 

[beckdg]

Yes, food is regulated... yet there are always stories about salmonella and e-coli contaminating it... I'm with whoever said that those regulations are just CYA for businesses, but don't really *protect* anyone. You want protection? Have it all inspected by a rabbi, and pronounced kosher!

No, I'm not jewish, but the inspection and blessing of the food by the rabbi was one of mankind's first attempts to "regulate" the food supply, and it worked extremely well -- one reason the jews were always getting blamed for plagues was that by and large, they did not get sick -- because of superior hygiene, and eating kosher food.

Andria

I'd be fine with kosher or halal.

 

[beckdg]

Foreign contaminants are a different story than hazardous ingredients...

Exactly. Ever stop to think why BT doesn't want us opening our cigalike carts?

Errrr...

Ever consider why the FDA is considering banning anything that's not tamper proof?

Errrr...

Why would the FDA want us to not be able to put our own safe ingredients into BT tampered and poisoned disposables?

Errrr...

Nevermind.
Forgot who I'm talking to.
FDA isn't a shill for big industry and BP and BT are completely trustworthy.
They'd never do anything even remotely harmful to their loyal customer base.


Face meet palm.

 

[Tangaroav]

I have not read the whole thread, but I searched for AEMSA and found no mention. Some vendors are voluntarily working to self regulate their industry.

AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

AEMSA is an attempt at establishing minimal standards. Their labeling rules are extremely lame and do not address most consumer's needs.

Section 4.03 ...........Labeling
(a) Smear Resistant Labeling is required on all e-liquid products
(i) Must pass “30 second submerged” test for all required elements
(b) Nicotine content must be clearly displayed
(c) Safety and health Warning must be clearly displayed
(i) Contains Nicotine
(ii) Keep away from Children and Pets
(d) Nicotine Traceability elements (i.e. Batch ID or nicotine batch ID or production date

It is a start, hopefully it will improve but I am afraid it may be another case of too little too late.

btw, Suicide bunny does not indicate on their website that they are a member of AEMSA. I wonder how many of the other 74% found with high dangerous substances by Dr. F are AEMSA members.

 

[realsis]

I make my own e juice IN MY HOME and I'm quite confident that my conditions are more than adaquate. Your FOOLING yourself if you think the companies that makes juices to sell uses a all sterile lab!! Not happening in most cases!!! FYI, just because I make my juice at home, in no way constitute that it's Dirty!! In fact, just the opposite. I use clean syringes for each item and never cross contaminate anything. My bottles are boiled before use and my flavor droppers are sterile. Just because someone is not in a lab setting that does not make them dirty. And trust me, I did dentistry for 35 years and have worked in lab settings, believe it or not, my home is more sterile than some lab settings and I am not joking!! So don't fool yourself..if you really knew how half the things we consume are prepared you would likely be very distressed!! So, to answer your question, no I actually feel safer knowing I've made my juice AT HOME then to not really know where it's coming from. Even "so called lab" settings can be nasty! ! Believe me, don't fool yourself. Only way to be sure of something is to do it yourself. .

 

[Wow1420]

AEMSA is an attempt at establishing minimal standards. Their labeling rules are extremely lame and do not address most consumer's needs.

Section 4.03 ...........Labeling
(a) Smear Resistant Labeling is required on all e-liquid products
(i) Must pass “30 second submerged” test for all required elements
(b) Nicotine content must be clearly displayed
(c) Safety and health Warning must be clearly displayed
(i) Contains Nicotine
(ii) Keep away from Children and Pets
(d) Nicotine Traceability elements (i.e. Batch ID or nicotine batch ID or production date

It is a start, hopefully it will improve but I am afraid it may be another case of too little too late.

btw, Suicide bunny does not indicate on their website that they are a member of AEMSA. I wonder how many of the other 74% found with high dangerous substances by Dr. F are AEMSA members.

They also require the use of custard notes and artificial colori to be noted in the product description, as well as ban the use of certain ingredients completely.

Section 2.05 The following will not be added or used in the creation of e-liquids
(a) Including but not limited to:
(i) Diacetyl
(ii) WTA (whole tobacco alkaloids)
(iii) Medicinal - or prescription medicinal
(iv) Illegal or controlled substances
(v) Caffeine
(vi) Vitamins or Dietary supplements (other than for preservative purposes)
(vii) Acetyl Propionyl (2,3-‐Pentanedione)
(viii) Artifical Food Coloring
1) AEMSA members will not add any artificial coloring or dyes during the e-liquid manufacturing process. Non vendor
manufactured flavorings containing artificial food coloring will identify food coloring information to include coloring
number in advertising and product descriptions
(iv) AEMSA reserves the right to review, evaluate and deny/approve any potential substance used in the creation of e-liquids
at any given time

It may not be as much as you'd want to see regulated, and I'm in disagreement with them on some points as well. But I far prefer to see the industry self-regulate than have regulations imposed by the government, as I'm sure government regulations will end up going too far.

 

[SnakeFarm]

Name ONE US regulatory agency that has not been co-opted by corporate or political interests?

ONE!

FDA: NOPE!
DEA: NOPE!
FBI: NOPE!
IRS: NOPE!
USDA: NOPE!
DoE: NOPE!
FEC: NOPE!
DoD: Not as much but, NOPE!