Am I the only person who has a problem with ppl making juice in their homes?

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Jman8

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No need to revamp anything. Just agree and support minimal standards that offer safe products including proper labeling . This is self regulation.

The free-for-all market will not last, that's for sure and we all know it. Too many incompetent, negligent and for-profit-at-all-cost vendors around.

I feel like I'm being labeled extremist in this thread (perhaps not), but to be as abundantly clear as I can, I desire some regulations. But stronger than that desire is arguing against this notion that the industry 'should be' regulated. Honestly, if it were almost any other industry, I'd be more inclined to seek required regulations, but it is precisely because ANTZ are in the game and have such amazing influence that it strikes me as recipe for disaster for vapers to be arguing for regulations with the word 'should' in there.

For me, a fair minded regulation would allow for diacetyl in eliquid, up to a limit. For another, it would be a requirement that the liquid be diacetyl free. So, who wins in that situation? Well, let's add ANTZ to this equation and then see how it would play out. And if you follow that implication, then I really can't think of a situation other than intentionally putting in poisons that lead to immediate death, that would be something all people are going to agree with. I'd be surprised if all vapers could agree on 'reasonable regulations.' That's the sort of 'self regulation' I think you are arguing for. But again, if I desire diacetyl (up to a limit) and majority says 'absolutely zero allowed' then a) I feel that is unreasonable and b) I am being shut out with what I desire, and what has already existed in the Golden Era of vaping.

But when you do add ANTZ into what is certainly coming about, I don't see how vapers think we are going to get 'reasonable regulations' by advocating for regulations. Instead, we are likely to get limits on nicotine, limits on gear, limits on toppers, limits on flavors, limits on where vaping can be done. And from ANTZ perspective, the more limiting, the better. ANTZ is constantly floating out propaganda that suggests the stuff we vapers consider GRAS (to inhale) is deadly contaminants that no one should ever inhale (with clear implication that no one should ever vape).

So, if you don't like the juice that people make in their homes, the very clear solution to that is not to buy it. And instead buy from sellers who are telling you they make it in a controlled lab. Saying sellers who make it in non controlled lab shouldn't be allowed to distribute it is challenging to understand from vaper's perspective. Not so hard to understand from non-vaper's perspective, but taken to level that ANTZ would, it would be argued that no one should be allowed to make liquid in their house (even for own use). If you do, I would think ANTZ would like to see that criminalized, and enforced wherever possible.

But in a world, that certainly feels like it is coming about, I believe the choice will be between Big Vapor, or DIY'er who does distribute among private network. I think the visible majority will choose to go with Big Vapor, while a substantial amount of people will be very glad to go with people who make it in their own home.

It is not realistic to expect the average e-liquid consumer to research this complex product and make an informed choice. This is simply not acceptable and will not work. Only a very small proportion of vapers are making this a hobby, frequent ecf and are educated enough on e-liquid to do so.

So, in your first sentence, you are implying that the current vaping world is unacceptable, are you not?

I am compelled to reiterate the ANTZ influence going forward as I think it matters greatly to perception of 'informed choice.' People all over ECF use the phrase 'safer than cigarettes' which admittedly I find hard to argue with (though not impossible) and yet, routinely strikes me as uninformed persons making that claim. For almost all the info regarding 'harms of smoking' come from ANTZ sources, and are so ingrained in our culture that if you challenge it, I find most people simply don't want to have that discussion. And at the level of perceived danger that comes from smoking, it would be like saying I ought to be able to physically discipline children whenever I want, because it's safer than shooting them. I mean it is accurate to say that, even while a sane person might say do neither.

Anyway, I slightly digress, but I believe it does relate because ANTZ is saying do neither. They already have appearance of clear victory on smoking, and jury is still out on vaping. IMO, they appear to be winning when it comes to soundbite discussions I occasionally encounter in general public, in that people do believe vaping carries with it intrinsic harm, and therefore reason not to do it. Well, once regulations do kick in (of the nationally mandated kind), this will make ANTZ work a little bit easier. I see their aim as shaming users and sellers, while maintaining a campaign of fear and thinking that by doing so, it will rid the world of this "evil" nicotine product or any desire to use anything that contains it.

I don't see any other alternative being proposed to self regulation except the status quo and the caveat emptor that you propose. IMO, only self-regulation is acceptable and can prevent the worst from happening. But, I am not too optimistic of the outcome.

Individual regulation, or current status quo, is the clear cut alternative to long term stability of vaping. But in a world co-habitated by ANTZ it is unrealistic to think free market for vaping will continue without any opposition. At same time, because of how zealous zealots are, they can, rather easily, manifest a situation where strict (and unreasonable) regulations lead to greater harm, as people will still desire to use (demand product) and suppliers will likely always be with us in some fashion. In the meantime, as ANTZ are going to keep being ANTZ, then our best course of action is to do what many on ECF and other vaping forums engage in almost every day; which is challenging ANTZ propaganda and logic, and informing everyone that is open minded to look at vaping in another light. One where grave harm is not the immediate perception, and where lots of variety and innovation is honored / respected. And part of that variety, IMO, needs to allow for people who make juice in their home and who are allowed to distribute it to whomever wants to buy from that type of seller.
 

sub4me

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Meaningless? I see big judgments won on a weekly basis. Once again how would regulation have prevented the case that you presented?

A big judgement is only good if there's a deep pocket to collect from. A criminal judgement is just that a criminal punishment and a civil case is easy to win on the merits of that case.
 

JoppaRoadCruiser

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Judgments are meaningless. Collecting them is everything... Try to collect $6 million from a local B&M..

Not quite sure what part about this you didn't understand----A licence to buy nicotine over certain concentrations, which requires a safety course would be a start...

My fault for not seeing that last part. But in regards to judements, so what if it is not collected. That B&M will no longer be in business. Problem solved. All without regulations.
 

sub4me

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JoppaRoadCruiser

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Mr.Mann

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Civil damages won't cut it. Criminal punishment will prevent vendors from supplying these types of liquids and will detour most from considering it as an option. Of course you may have a criminal market for it but at least those substances would not be on a store shelf like they are now. This isnt' hard to understand.

Question: Will regulations protect you from harm or danger? Yes or no.

:pop::pop::pop::pop::pop:
 

stevegmu

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My fault for not seeing that last part. But in regards to judements, so what if it is not collected. That B&M will no longer be in business. Problem solved. All without regulations.

And they open up a new shop next door under a different name... All it will take is 1 death, or an exploding mod near a kids face, then Congress will get involved- and not in a good way. Little Johnny's parents testifying at a congressional subcomittee about how he was such a sweet boy, just trying to quit smoking... Better yet, he doesn't die, but his mod explodes and half of his face is gone, while he sits there at the subcomittee, cameras rolling, drool coming out of the corner of what is left of his mouth, the deciders plotting courses of action to appease the voters...
 

crxess

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Nope, its legal and is being sold openly many places that's the problem. No regulations means anyone can put any substance in the bottle and call it e liquid as long as it does not contain an illegal substance.

If this is true - Why the Criminal and Search warrants by Joint enforcement in several counties?
Someone in Law enforcement thinks it is illegal...... at least in Selling it.
 
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JoppaRoadCruiser

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And they open up a new shop next door under a different name... All it will take is 1 death, or an exploding mod near a kids face, then Congress will get involved- and not in a good way. Little Johnny's parents testifying at a congressional subcomittee about how he was such a sweet boy, just trying to quit smoking... Better yet, he doesn't die, but his mod explodes and half of his face is gone, while he sits there at the subcomittee, cameras rolling, drool coming out of the corner of what is left of his mouth, the deciders plotting courses of action to appease the voters...

At least with congress you have representation. No one elects members of the FDA.
 

sub4me

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It this is true - Why the Criminal and Search warrants by Joint enforcement in several counties?
Someone in Law enforcement thinks it is illegal...... at least in Selling it.

I have seen no enforcement of the eliquids, a lot don't even know it exists in that form yet.

Question: Will regulations protect you from harm or danger? Yes or no.

:pop::pop::pop::pop::pop:

I understand what your saying but its more complicated then yes or no. Regulations will promote protections however nothing is harm or danger free.
 

Jman8

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Question: Will regulations protect you from harm or danger? Yes or no.

I don't get why this question went unanswered by the pro-regulation crowd for at least 2 pages.

I say regulations will lead to more danger. I also don't think they should, but I believe they will, and I say this because of what ANTZ brings to the table.

sub4me keeps saying

There is no way to know what's being bottled and sold

And I don't see regulations changing this. Like I argued in the Dr. F. thread, there will be no way (via regulations imposed on vendors) for the consumer to know for sure that their liquid is diacetyl-free unless they test it themselves. They can be told by a vendor that it is, but we have already experienced that in the vaping world, and later learned that even vendors, and really even manufacturers didn't know for sure. Scientist can know for sure, but once it leaves scientist hands, then everyone outside of that process is relying on trust/reputation, and not knowledge. Thus, you won't know for sure, but you'll trust reports given to you (that you'll barely understand) and you'll trust reputation. Which is how current vaping world works, I would argue, 98.6% of the time.
 

JoppaRoadCruiser

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I did answer you, pages ago over and over. I don't want to be pulled into arguing when the answer is already there.

No you haven't. I have seen zero in-depth logical rebuttals from you whatsoever in response to the questions presented. Like I said keep on digging. Not to mention your personal attacks against other members.
 

sub4me

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I'm gonna finish my Halo vape. Please have a nice night.

There was no attack towards anyone. We as in everyone here were having a discussion. Some agree some disagree. You kept demanding I show that your wrong. I simply asked you to stop arguing for the sake of arguing and said it comes off as desperate. I did not call you any names or attack you. I aplogize if you somehow feel that way.
 
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AndriaD

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I detect a sleight of hand here. Where do you see "so many refusing self regualtion as proposes by AEMSA"? Refuse our own vendors choices to join whatever organization they choose? Not understanding what you are getting at. I can't remember seeing anyone say they actually oppose voluntary regulations from any of our own organizations. It would seem to me that there have been some (not saying you) that are calling for obligatory regulations, and I am saying who in the bejeezus do you think can make things obligatory? Certainly not AEMSA!

I have no problem whatever with AEMSA. Apparently I don't buy from anyone who participates in AEMSA, but I have no problem with their existence -- but I reserve the right to buy from whomever I choose, because I'm terribly afraid our stupid gov't is going to take that right away from me, for no good reason except that THEY THINK THEY CAN.

It may be that this will end up being put to rest in the courts, but it may be too late for some small businesses by the time it's finally decided. So I intend to enjoy my favorites while I can; stockpile a little (how long does pre-made ejuice last, a year?), and work on my DIY skills so that maybe eventually I can replicate some of the flavors I like best.

Andria
 

Mr.Mann

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I have seen no enforcement of the eliquids, a lot don't even know it exists in that form yet.



I understand what your saying but its more complicated then yes or no. Regulations will promote protections however nothing is harm or danger free.

"Promote" like take this pill (with dubious ingredients) to "promote male enhancement"? And don't forget while all those pills are legally being sold (on TV, radio and in your own gas station -- among other places) to those desperate teenage boys, "th[ose] statements have not been evaluated by the FDA." Or, we can talk about all those legal diet pills intended to "promote healthy weight". At least their labs are registered with the FDA. Though, I am not sure how much of a consolation that is to the surviving family members. And those situations are not hypothetical.
 

Jman8

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And they open up a new shop next door under a different name... All it will take is 1 death, or an exploding mod near a kids face, then Congress will get involved- and not in a good way. Little Johnny's parents testifying at a congressional subcomittee about how he was such a sweet boy, just trying to quit smoking... Better yet, he doesn't die, but his mod explodes and half of his face is gone, while he sits there at the subcomittee, cameras rolling, drool coming out of the corner of what is left of his mouth, the deciders plotting courses of action to appease the voters...

...and the reasonable people saying, "this time when we come up with reasonable regulations, ANTZ is forbidden from partaking in the process. Sorry FDA, this means you. For you allowed your zealotry to be put before the science and so little Johnny was compelled to get a mod from the black market that wouldn't have existed if there wasn't a rush to regulate in the first place. Cause we all remember back in the Golden Era of vaping, way before those idiotic regulations, that there were no cases of exploding batteries except by those individuals that modified their own. So, I guess humanity needed to have little Johnny experience this horrible tragedy because some people were so hell bent on suggesting that there should be regulations, without realizing that in the Golden Era, things were pretty darn safe, as clearly the historical record indicates."
 

JoppaRoadCruiser

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I'm gonna finish my Halo vape. Please have a nice night.

There was no attack towards anyone. We as in everyone here were having a discussion. Some agree some disagree. You kept demanding I show that your wrong. I simply asked you to stop arguing for the sake of arguing and said it comes off as desperate. I did not call you any names or attack you. I aplogize if you somehow feel that way.

Do I need to go pull the posts where you referred to the individuals concerned about the danger of fda regualtions as extremists and paranoid? You have previously been reprimanded by a mod for the same thing. I can go grab those posts too.
 

Mr.Mann

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...and the reasonable people saying, "this time when we come up with reasonable regulations, ANTZ is forbidden from partaking in the process. Sorry FDA, this means you. For you allowed your zealotry to be put before the science and so little Johnny was compelled to get a mod from the black market that wouldn't have existed if there wasn't a rush to regulate in the first place. Cause we all remember back in the Golden Era of vaping, way before those idiotic regulations, that there were no cases of exploding batteries except by those individuals that modified their own. So, I guess humanity needed to have little Johnny experience this horrible tragedy because some people were so hell bent on suggesting that there should be regulations, without realizing that in the Golden Era, things were pretty darn safe, as clearly the historical record indicates."

Man, I am so tempted to draw a parallel to another hot-button issue, but I am not that dumb! LOL.
 
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