Blatant Disrespect IMHO

[MrStik]

There are many of us long time vapers who have stated consistently that we should vape openly most places (not all) BUT with respect and common sense. No blowing of vapor in people's faces, no vaping on a crowded elevator and abide by private property decisions when they are provided, etc.

Unfortunately, some on ECF want the world to perceive vaping as being exactly the same as smoking and just as dangerous and thus we should vape only with smokers. They either can't understand or refuse to acknowledge that "perceptions are reality". The ANTZ's love vapers like this. You are supporting their anti-vaping agenda quite well.

Vape openly most places BUT with respect for others and common sense and be well prepared to educate the uninformed.

Everyone is trying to fight the same battle, but using different methods. Logically, to me, is not to draw too much unwanted attention and to stay clear of drama. Those who are passive and do not want the unwanted attention will take the very conservative road and will abide by the "smoking rules". In your opinion, that is hurting your well argued cause, but to many, that is as far as they are willing to go with the issue. Is it right? In your eyes, no, but in theirs, yes it is.

I, for one, will not step into a smoker's pit to vape. I will not attempt to vape inside a restaurant. In fact, I will not vape at all inside someone's private establishment (business or home) without first asking for permission. But being a casual vaper, I can wait until I get outside before I vape.

 

[wv2win]

Everyone is trying to fight the same battle, but using different methods. Logically, to me, is not to draw too much unwanted attention and to stay clear of drama. Those who are passive and do not want the unwanted attention will take the very conservative road and will abide by the "smoking rules". In your opinion, that is hurting your well argued cause, but to many, that is as far as they are willing to go with the issue. Is it right? In your eyes, no, but in theirs, yes it is.

I, for one, will not step into a smoker's pit to vape. I will not attempt to vape inside a restaurant. In fact, I will not vape at all inside someone's private establishment (business or home) without first asking for permission. But being a casual vaper, I can wait until I get outside before I vape.

I understand that some people's personality prevents them from being completely open about vaping. I would suggest they just don't vape in designated smoking areas but instead in some area away from others. At least then they are not feeding the perception that vaping is the same as smoking. Plus they are not subjected to all of that analog smoke or have to answer questions about vaping.

I would also suggest that we all carry and hand-out these when questioned, especially if one doesn't want to educate the uninformed verbally:

CASAA E-cigarette Information Cards

(unfortunately these are currently out-of-stock because not enough of us have joined and are supporting CASAA)

 

[notdanielbutdaniel]

I'm with the OP and I'm against vaping in malls and shops.

My reasoning is:

- People feel that no-smoking laws are there to protect them and their children.
- If they see you vaping in a public space they are going to feel that you are compromising their health.
- Even if they go so far as to go online and do a little research they would find conflicting arguments about the safety of vaping. The fact that there are discussions around banning e-cigs would certainly make someone feel uncomfortable about you vaping in a public space.
- Very few none-vapers are going to be standing up and fighting for our right to vape. A lot of people will probably see the debate as something that doesn't affect them and will not get involved. If however, they feel that they are being exposed to something which is potentially damaging to them (whether they are right or not is not the issue here) then they will quite likely side up against us.


That's the way I see it.

 

[Baldr]

You sir, are what is the problem people have with vapers. It is a shame that we all get associated with you.

You are insulting me simply because I won't pretend that vaping is the same as smoking.

And all of your talk about "the problem people have with vapers" seems to be in your head. I go out and vape in public all the time. Nobody ever complains. Bottom line, people hated smoking because it smelled bad. With vaping, you have a much healthier habit, and it doesn't smell bad, so people don't mind.

 

[wv2win]

I'm with the OP and I'm against vaping in malls and shops.

My reasoning is:

- People feel that no-smoking laws are there to protect them and their children.
- If they see you vaping in a public space they are going to feel that you are compromising their health.
- Even if they go so far as to go online and do a little research they would find conflicting arguments about the safety of vaping. The fact that there are discussions around banning e-cigs would certainly make someone feel uncomfortable about you vaping in a public space.
- Very few none-vapers are going to be standing up and fighting for our right to vape. A lot of people will probably see the debate as something that doesn't affect them and will not get involved. If however, they feel that they are being exposed to something which is potentially damaging to them (whether they are right or not is not the issue here) then they will quite likely side up against us.


That's the way I see it.

So even though there have now been conclusive studies that show that vaping is not harmful to those near by, you are suggesting that we act as if it is as dangerous as smoking. And that we have no hope of negating the lies with the truth about vaping, so we should just accept the lies as fact and act as if we are still smoking. The ANTZ's just love this reasoning.

 

[Pav]

You are insulting me simply because I won't pretend that vaping is the same as smoking.

I don't think anyone here expects you to pretend vaping is the same as smoking. Just don't pretend it's the same as everyone else just breathing air either. It isn't.

Bottom line, people hated smoking because it smelled bad. With vaping, you have a much healthier habit, and it doesn't smell bad, so people don't mind.

Most people don't mind. Some do. I've had a small percentage of people tell me the smell of vaping bothered them (I use coffee flavor). And one even got an irritable throat (or so he claimed). You shouldn't make such sweeping assumptions about how everyone feels based on your limited anecdotal evidence.

 

[notdanielbutdaniel]

You and I may have chosen to accept the studies as conclusive. The jury in the eyes of the public is still out, be it with regards to the contents of different flavourings used, certain people's reactions to VG/PG - the point is that if someone unexposed to e-cigs was to do a search online they would most likely come to the conclusion that vaping is dangerous, or at the very best that we just don't know

I think that if you want people's tolerance and acceptance of you then you have to give them the same. I can live for 45 minutes without my ecigs while I go buy my vegetables, and for me.... if there are 100 people in the shop and only one of them would have been slightly annoyed by my vaping, then it's better that I didn't vape. I want these people on my side, I'm not out to make some militant statement about how I'm free to vape wherever I want - be it a cinema, hospital or creche.

Basically I believe that vaping is healthy enough, but I'm aware that there is a lot of debate around the subject and hence I'm not going to force other people to accept my beliefs.

 

[wv2win]

You and I may have chosen to accept the studies as conclusive. The jury in the eyes of the public is still out, be it with regards to the contents of different flavourings used, certain people's reactions to VG/PG - the point is that if someone unexposed to e-cigs was to do a search online they would most likely come to the conclusion that vaping is dangerous, or at the very best that we just don't know

I think that if you want people's tolerance and acceptance of you then you have to give them the same. I can live for 45 minutes without my ecigs while I go buy my vegetables, and for me.... if there are 100 people in the shop and only one of them would have been slightly annoyed by my vaping, then it's better that I didn't vape. I want these people on my side, I'm not out to make some militant statement about how I'm free to vape wherever I want - be it a cinema, hospital or creche.

Basically I believe that vaping is healthy enough, but I'm aware that there is a lot of debate around the subject and hence I'm not going to force other people to accept my beliefs.

Vaping openly most places but respectfully is not forcing anything on anyone. You are suggesting that the mere sight of some one vaping in another person's general vicinity is "forcing others to accept your beliefs". That's just hogwash. You are also ignoring the point that acting like vaping is the same as smoking supports the lies that vaping and smoking are the same and equally dangerous. Acting as if the lies about vaping by the ANTZ's is really the truth, only harms the vaping community and supports those who want vaping banned and/or severely restricted. This stance is the road to perdition for the vaping community.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Personally, I see no issue vaping in the mall or inside a store if that store sells e-cigarettes (so, for instance, I wouldn't vape in Target or Walmart, but I would in nearly every mall I frequent). I'd say 99% of the malls here in Tennessee sell e-cigarettes via kiosk, whether it's the cig-a-likes or more advanced setups. I see the business owners vaping as I pass by and nobody says a word, nor are they dodging the vapor clouds, moving their kids out of the way, gagging or griping.

So....with that in mind, if mall security happened to stop me and proceeded to ask me to stop vaping, then I'd have an issue with that. They'd basically be telling me that I'm not allowed to vape inside the mall because I'm not paying for a kiosk or shop. It becomes a double-standard and if someone were to push it and want to take it further, a lawsuit.

The mall is a public place of business and if they allow a business to sell what they discourage and vape, then they shouldn't have an issue with potential customers or customers of said business vaping either.

I'm with the OP and I'm against vaping in malls and shops.

My reasoning is:

- People feel that no-smoking laws are there to protect them and their children.
- If they see you vaping in a public space they are going to feel that you are compromising their health.
- Even if they go so far as to go online and do a little research they would find conflicting arguments about the safety of vaping. The fact that there are discussions around banning e-cigs would certainly make someone feel uncomfortable about you vaping in a public space.
- Very few none-vapers are going to be standing up and fighting for our right to vape. A lot of people will probably see the debate as something that doesn't affect them and will not get involved. If however, they feel that they are being exposed to something which is potentially damaging to them (whether they are right or not is not the issue here) then they will quite likely side up against us.


That's the way I see it.

 

[wv2win]

Personally, I see no issue vaping in the mall or inside a store if that store sells e-cigarettes (so, for instance, I wouldn't vape in Target or Walmart, but I would in nearly every mall I frequent). I'd say 99% of the malls here in Tennessee sell e-cigarettes via kiosk, whether it's the cig-a-likes or more advanced setups. I see the business owners vaping as I pass by and nobody says a word, nor are they dodging the vapor clouds, moving their kids out of the way, gagging or griping.

So....with that in mind, if mall security happened to stop me and proceeded to ask me to stop vaping, then I'd have an issue with that. They'd basically be telling me that I'm not allowed to vape inside the mall because I'm not paying for a kiosk or shop. It becomes a double-standard and if someone were to push it and want to take it further, a lawsuit.

The mall is a public place of business and if they allow a business to sell what they discourage and vape, then they shouldn't have an issue with potential customers or customers of said business vaping either.

Both Walmart and Target sell PV's.

 

[Intervap]

I agree for the most part. If I'm grocery shopping, I'll wait until I'm done to vape. If I absolutely need my nic fix in a public building, I'll go into the bathroom and take a couple stealth toots (like in class for instance). I used to vape openly in a lot of places until I realized that a lot of people are uncomfortable with it (or just rude). Now I ask the manager and the people around me if they mind, which is a surprising "no" a lot of the time! goes to show, asking for permission in some scenarios is better than asking for forgiveness!
With that said, people are going to do what they want until there is a law banning it. If the business doesn't allow it, they usually just won't take their business there anymore. There are a thousand and a half threads like this and what I've learned from every single one of them is that people have their opinions and there is no correct answer to public vaping.
In conclusion, it all depends on the vaper, the business, the location. and the other customers.

 

[notdanielbutdaniel]

Look, maybe it's a cultural difference in terms of norms in America and South Africa. I know here, that if a pregnant woman for e.g. saw me vaping near her in a store, it would cause huge discomfort on her behalf. I know that a lot of people here are incredibly health conscious and although they might not say anything if they saw me vaping in a shop, it would cause them to form a negative impression about me and vaping.

That's basically my point, I am aware of it and so I respectfully vape where I know I won't bother anyone and cause people to form negative opinions.

 

[Jcdew67]

If we were vaping Caffeine hardly a word would be said. And why is it noone ever said anything about a Haunted House or a Concert that uses fog machines? It is the same thing

 

[Fulgurant]

Just keep in mind, public opinion goes a long way for or against vaping. All the "rights" we have or don't have are there based on what the masses vote them to be. Wherever or however you vape, remember that people around you are, be it unfairly, forming their opinion about vaping and vapers as a whole. If the masses ultimately form a negative opinion, and vote it to the realm of analogs, it will no longer be our "right."

The masses have no right to ban the use of a harmless product. So the question is whether vaping is harmless. We have reason to believe that vaping might cause some small harm to the vaper himself (though far far less than smoking causes a smoker), but we have no reason to believe that vaping causes any harm to others. Thus, we have every reason to expect and accept that the purchase and possession of vaping components (most likely, nicotine) will be regulated; we have zero reason to accept a blanket prohibition against the use of vaping devices in public places.

Anyway, I agree with your main point. As you point out, we don't have a right to vape wherever we please and with zero consequences. You are quite correct to note that private businesses can restrict vaping (along with a whole host of other behaviors) on their premises.

That said, it does rankle that we live in a world where the public (government) is presumed to have near-unlimited power to restrict the behaviors of the individual. Your phrasing touched a nerve, in other words. Vaping may not be an iron-clad right, but neither is there any right on the part of non-vapers, even if they comprise the majority of voters, to demand that vaping cease.

More to the point of the thread and of your post: this is a delicate time. Rightly or wrongly, the public will have something important to say on the vaping issue, and it behooves us to tread lightly. We should not concede that vaping is equivalent to smoking, but neither should we brazenly enflame the understandable concerns of the uninitiated. Every time one of us marches into a store puffing away without so much as a by your leave, we play right into the opposition's hands. And make no mistake: there is an opposition, a relatively small but powerful group that takes great pleasure in exploiting all of the prejudices of an ill-informed public. Our best hope is to fight those prejudices -- with respectful arguments and information -- not to fight the people who hold them.

 

[Revelene]

Everywhere I go I vape. It does not matter where. I don't blow my vapor at people and keep it to myself. It is no one's business what I do. Yeah, the people that vape ridiculous clouds in public shouldn't be doing it out of respect. Respect is one thing but you shouldn't care what other people do when it harms no one in the process.

 

[Baldr]

Every time one of us marches into a store puffing away without so much as a by your leave, we play right into the opposition's hands.

If we only vape in places where there is a sign saying either "smoking allowed" or "vaping allowed", then the opposition wins without us ever putting up a fight. At that point, you are already giving them what they want.

I don't doubt that there is an opposition. But it's not nearly as big as you think. I vape openly in a ton of places. I do it every day, and I have for a couple of years. And nobody complains.

I'm very convinced that people complained about smoking because of the smell. Vaping doesn't have such a strong smell, and what smell it does have is generally a much better smell, more along the lines of burning a scented candle. Since they aren't being annoyed by the smell, they aren't bothered.

 

[vincentk18]

I'll vape where I please, thanks.

 

[Reme]

I'll vape where I please, thanks.

Unless an employee or owner of a business tells you to stop, right?

 

[WellAdjustedAndroid]

When started vaping I vaped in my easy chair. Now I go outside. I'm more comfortable - just in case years later I find my living room ends up smelling like a candy store. Not saying it will...just saying as a former smoker in an extremely unfriendly city, I vape outdoors only where smoking is allowed because that is what I am used to doing.

Vaping is fun. Vaping tastes good. Vaping got me off analogs. But geesh. Its not worth fighting a crusade over. Many better things to do.

 

[DC2]

When started vaping I vaped in my easy chair. Now I go outside. I'm more comfortable - just in case years later I find my living room ends up smelling like a candy store. Not saying it will...just saying as a former smoker in an extremely unfriendly city, I vape outdoors only where smoking is allowed because that is what I am used to doing.

Vaping is fun. Vaping tastes good. Vaping got me off analogs. But geesh. Its not worth fighting a crusade over. Many better things to do.

Do you live near one of these beaches or parks?
The Real Motivation Behind Park And Beach Smoking Bans - Forbes

The number of bans on smoking in parks grew steadily from 0 in 1993 to over 843 in 2010. Similarly, the number of bans affecting beaches across the US went from 0 in 1995 to 150 in 2010.

Those of us who are fighting are not fighting a crusade.
We are fighting against a crusade that has been going on for decades.

Hey, you live in New York, New York...

New York City has followed this trend. As of May of 2011 smoking in any city park, pedestrian mall, or beach became illegal.