Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Bronze]

A complete flavor ban could be almost as destructive as Deeming. It would shut down the B&M's which are the main source of hardware and juice for most vapers, and probably cause a major reduction in the number of vapers. I guess some on-line sellers could get by just selling hardware and tobacco flavored juice to the remaining customers. Probably many of them are like the shops, making a lot of their profit from juice.

You could argue that the current attack on flavors might help us, at least if the flavor ban is stopped. It brings the serious consequences of shutting down vaping out in the open ahead of the Deeming date. By the time Deeming comes up the politicians will have already been forced to factor that in. It appears that they were completely unaware of the consequences and the resulting uproar until the last few weeks. Without the flavor ban rumpus we would have gone into the Deeming starting from scratch. It might have also educated a lot of vapers who had no idea what was coming.

Make no mistake, they are both important (as I stated). We need both disasters lifted. Overturning a flavor ban happens to be in our current crosshairs. But we need to take this opportunity to discuss Deeming while we have Trump's attention on flavor bans.

 

[AttyPops]

I believe that the current debate over bans is a "smokescreen" .. (no pun intended) .. and that the upcoming Deeming is fully known by the Powers That Be .. so, even if no flavor ban takes place now, all they have to do is wait until next year and simply push the blame off on the FDA ..

How FDA is Regulating E-Cigarettes

I suppose we could conjecture that it's
A) A test of the upcoming deeming results (because the deeming basically turns it all over to BT anyway)
B) Psyops that help justify/support the deeming and any future taxation. Crisis! Epidemic! Got to do something!!!! Vilify! Vilify!
C) Legit concern for underage use (doubtful, because if so, they'd focus on access not a flavor-red-herring. And it's the vape stores that card the best).
D) Possibly (also doubtful) concern about the multitude of flavors and chemicals making any historical analysis of any future harm found almost impossible to backtrack. If this were the case, they'd say so.
E) They just don't taste crappy enough to discourage new users from using them (stems from a legit concern about new-vapers)

 

[Bronze]

I wonder how these meetings work. Does each group go in one at a time? Is there a Q & A? Or does each group just present a “case”? I wonder in what order they will speak, who gets the last word, etc. I believe those logistics will influence POTUS’ decision.

I really don't know. Usually when Trump has an advocacy meeting he sits everyone around that gigantic table that seats a small army along with lining the walls around the room (made mostly of his cabinet and advisers). Some of the discussion follows a format and some of it is free-flowing. Don't know if that's what is on tap for today but that's how he usually does it.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I suppose we could conjecture that it's
A) A test of the upcoming deeming results (because the deeming basically turns it all over to BT anyway)
B) Psyops that help justify/support the deeming and any future taxation. Crisis! Epidemic! Got to do something!!!! Vilify! Vilify!
C) Legit concern for underage use (doubtful, because if so, they'd focus on access not a flavor-red-herring. And it's the vape stores that card the best).
D) Possibly (also doubtful) concern about the multitude of flavors and chemicals making any historical analysis of any future harm found almost impossible to backtrack. If this were the case, they'd say so.
E) They just don't taste crappy enough to discourage new users from using them (stems from a legit concern about new-vapers)

I also believe that if whatever Pro-Vape Lobby was able to cut a fat check(s) to the right Politicos, all of this would Magically disappear ..

 

[Baditude]

zoiDman .. THC commercially available extraction equipment has been available for some time now within the USA ..

The one thing that I wonder about, and I don't recall having ever seen it mentioned, is, the PV has not officially fallen under the heading of a "Smoking Cessation Device" .. along the same lines as Patches / Gum ..

I can't help but think that could be some eventual endgame .. if the PV was "deemed" a "Smoking Cessation Device", what would the landscape look like at that point .. ??

By "PV" I'm assuming you're technically speaking of a Personal Vaporizor as being a "smoking cessation device". Would you call this personal vaporizor a smoking cessation device? It seems to be there is always going to be grey areas where vaping is concerned.

 

[AttyPops]

I also believe that if whatever Pro-Vape Lobby was able to cut a fat check(s) to the right Politicos, all of this would Magically disappear ..

So sad and so true at the same time.

This country was built on tobacco and cotton...among other things. The BT influence and expertise and money is as old as the hills. Even if the crop growing isn't as it was.

 

[englishmick]

Make no mistake, they are both important (as I stated). We need both disasters lifted. Overturning a flavor ban happens to be in our current crosshairs. But we need to take this opportunity to discuss Deeming while we have Trump's attention on flavor bans.

We do seem to have got his attention. Hopefully Trump, or at least someone in his orbit, will process some of the nuances like separating the adult ex-smoker / teen usage / THC illness factors. And one of his senior domestic policy advisers was linked here a couple of weeks ago giving a pretty coherent analysis of the vaping situation. Just cross our fingers that Giuliani doesn't get involved.

I'm not a fan of Trump but I'm kind of glad the decisions about vaping are coming to a head now. It's a lot easier for politicians to take potentially unpopular action at the start of a second term or the start of a new administration, when it's a long way to the next election. If they kick the can down the road that could be bad news for us.

 

[Baditude]

The price diff between street and dispensary is BIG. "They" often buy off the street.

I agree, and this will insure there will always be a black market for those not willing to pay more money for the sake of safety.

I know an acquantance who told me he trusts his street source and feels safe buying black market product from him. I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to risk that. It would be from a legal dispensary before I'd buy off the street, especially after the vaping crisis came about. He believes he can tell by "looking at it" whether it is legit or counterfeit; this from a middle aged, educated, professional man.

Vaping THC is a different animal than vaping nicotine, IMHO. Vaping nicotine has been reasonably regulated to be safe since the FDA got involved concerning e-liquid. With cannabis, which has been more or less unregulated, we must deal with how and where the plant was grown (were the plants grown in the US or some foreign country; were herbacides, fungicides, pestacides used while the plant was growing? What additives or cutting agents were used? Is the finished product lab tested for impurities, potency, and the like?).

I read an article that a California lab tested samples of THC cartridges which tested positive for the herbacide that turns into hydrogen cyanide when heated and for vitamin E acetate months before the vaping illness crisis ocurred, told two different federal agencies in charge of cannabis products that a potential crisis could happen, who both stated it was out of their jurisdiction and they didn't know what agency should be notified. Talk about dropping the ball.

 

[englishmick]

I read an article that a California lab tested samples of THC cartridges which tested positive for the herbacide that turns into hydrogen cyanide when heated and for vitamin E acetate months before the vaping illness crisis ocurred, told two different federal agencies in charge of cannabis products that a potential crisis could happen, who both stated it was out of their jurisdiction and they didn't know what agency should be notified. Talk about dropping the ball.

I guess we need some more agencies.

 

[Baditude]

I guess we need some more agencies.

As much as I detest bigger government and additional government agencies, the FDA obviously has been overwhelmed and ineffective regulating nicotine vaping. The one guy who has been involved with this task in multiple administrations recently admitted that in his opinion the FDA has no business regulating tobacco products.

So maybe a new agency is required to regulate both forms of vaping so that they get the proper attention and focus needed to be effective.

 

[WorksForMe]

Well... the big meeting at the White House should be starting now. Good luck to Greg Conley, Tony Abboud, and Paul Blair.

 

[Uncle Willie]

By "PV" I'm assuming you're technically speaking of a Personal Vaporizor as being a "smoking cessation device". Would you call this personal vaporizor a smoking cessation device? It seems to be there is always going to be grey areas where vaping is concerned.

If it gets you off the Marlboro's, then sure ..

 

[Eskie]

Truthfully, I'm more interested in this meeting from the standpoint of educating Trump on the devastating effect of Deeming more than I am on convincing him that a flavor bans sucks. Both, however, are important. But I see this as an opportunity to make him aware that Deeming will kill jobs (and people) even more than a flavor ban. I have to believe our advocates will take advantage of this opportunity to do just that.

I doubt Trump has the slightest idea what the Deeming regs are. Even if he is made aware, it would be up to Azar and the new commissioner Hahn if confirmed to deal with. Even then, their hands are somewhat tied by first, already releasing significant information (however incomplete it still is) on what will be required, and is under a court order to begin the process in May. It's not like Trump can tell them drop the whole thing. Well, he could, but they couldn't listen without legal and political consequences from both the courts and from Congress. The only "out" will be the discretion granted to waive or modify application requirements on a case by case basis, which means a written record of every instance and the justification of the decision. Pretty unlikely to be the primary course of events.

zoiDman .. THC commercially available extraction equipment has been available for some time now within the USA ..

The one thing that I wonder about, and I don't recall having ever seen it mentioned, is, the PV has not officially fallen under the heading of a "Smoking Cessation Device" .. along the same lines as Patches / Gum ..

I can't help but think that could be some eventual endgame .. if the PV was "deemed" a "Smoking Cessation Device", what would the landscape look like at that point .. ??

Smoking cessation turns it back into a drug. The best you can achieve and remain in the Tobacco Institute and not the CDER would be a modified harm reduction product. You do not want it in the drug category at all, as the requirements make a PMTA seem like a 5 minute class quiz.

 

[LoveVanilla]

FYI, not live at the moment but if you're on the edge of your seat....

Watch: President Trump speaks at vaping roundtable

CBSN will carry President Trump's comments in the player above Friday afternoon

Edit: LIVE NOW!!!

 

[Bronze]

I doubt Trump has the slightest idea what the Deeming regs are. Even if he is made aware, it would be up to Azar and the new commissioner Hahn if confirmed to deal with. Even then, their hands are somewhat tied by first, already releasing significant information (however incomplete it still is) on what will be required, and is under a court order to begin the process in May. It's not like Trump can tell them drop the whole thing. Well, he could, but they couldn't listen without legal and political consequences from both the courts and from Congress. The only "out" will be the discretion granted to waive or modify application requirements on a case by case basis, which means a written record of every instance and the justification of the decision. Pretty unlikely to be the primary course of events.

I think he has a slight idea what Deeming is but my guess is not enough. I kind of disagree with your Azar assessment because it was Azar who advised Trump on implementing a flavor ban. Someone got to Trump because he parted ways with Azar on this flavor ban. I do agree with you about having his hands tied. Not sure how much oomph he has to take down the regs. Relaxing enforcement perhaps? Beyond that, not sure. Seems congress could help here and I'm sure not counting on that.

 

[Bronze]

FYI, not live at the moment but if you're on the edge of your seat....

Watch: President Trump speaks at vaping roundtable

CBSN will carry President Trump's comments in the player above Friday afternoon

Edit: LIVE NOW!!!

I see Azar brought a different attitude with him. Probably doesn't like how Trump's boot feels up his .....

 

[Bronze]

These don't sound like vaping advocates to me. Quite the contrary.

 

[Bronze]

These are NOT vaping advocates. They're proposing a full flavor ban.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Smoking cessation turns it back into a drug. The best you can achieve and remain in the Tobacco Institute and not the CDER would be a modified harm reduction product. You do not want it in the drug category at all, as the requirements make a PMTA seem like a 5 minute class quiz.

That was my point ..

 

[Bronze]

ALRIGHT!! Some dude brought up the looming Deeming regs.