Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[AttyPops]

Tax stamps would be a BIG problem, because they consider coils, tanks, pv's, etc. to be nicotine containing items. How the heck would that even work?

Right. It's more overhead that the small guy has a problem with. You'd think labeling and age-checks on delivery would be sufficient.

But the tax revenue has to be collected. So that's what the stamps are about, verifying that the taxes were paid by the seller. E.G. not bootleg.

Now, IDK that the states are requiring such stamps. Yet. But it's interesting to ponder.

 

[Eskie]

If state tax stamps are required in the same manner as on cigarettes then B&M will be the only source as they will be in state. An online vendor isn’t going to have 50 different stamps for every state and apply accordingly. That alone will effectively ban online sales of vaping products and certainly juice, as that’s what contains the nic they want to tax.

 

[*RJ*]

It would take a lot of experience to master that type of meeting and make the most of your small windows of opportunity. Playing to Trump's narcissism and at the same time getting the most important points across - like walking a tightrope. I agree Greg hung back at times when he shouldn't have and possibly came across as a little aggressive at others. Still I want to thank him for his efforts on our behalf. What a nest of vipers the world of politics is.

Trump nodded a lot when Greg was speaking. I think Greg was speaking his language. I thought he did an excellent job. Trump seemed to understand when Greg said that Juul is hanging back, stopping flavors, so when everyone else folds they will have most of the market. Trump understood that one. Trump is smart in business. So if Juul's business has increased since stopping flavors, does that mean children are now vaping tobacco? Just sayin...

 

[DaveP]

Lets hope that cooler heads prevail in the decisions about the future of e-cigs. We know that e-cigs are the cure for smokers. We know that there's over 10 years of history with no health issues caused by vaping until people starting adding dangerous chemicals to their vape. If Mr. Trump reviews the data he'll see that vaping can cure smokers of a habit that results in early death and expensive medical treatment costs.

As far as teens go, the problem with underage purchases can be controlled by requiring that vape products be sold only to those who are over 21. Yes, there will be illegal purchases made by those who look older than their years and by those who fake an ID successfully, but the bottom line will be fewer sales to underage buyers. A valid drivers license that proves age is very hard to fake in my state with all the holographic features used.

 

[mikepetro]

I actually liked how DT handled the meeting, and I am not a fan, but he kept control by asking each person, what would you do. I think he liked the fawning he got from the fan groups, even the mom's against vaping. He's thinking votes, so not sure what he will decide, what group can he offend and still keep his voting fan base. But pretty sure 21 age limit is a definite.

Agreed, he is thinking about votes.

If you look around that room, who represented the most votes? The pro-vape or the anti-vape? Me thinks we were greatly outnumbered.

 

[Iron Molly]

Agreed, he is thinking about votes.

If you look around that room, who represented the most votes? The pro-vape or the anti-vape? Me thinks we were greatly outnumbered.

We were. But, I don't think their solution to the "youth crisis" (banning flavors) will be effective. No one gave any evidence that it would accomplish it's purpose. In fact, the evidence was to the contrary.

We KNOW how to fix this. Nic cap (as much as I'm not in favor), and sales only in over 21 stores. Open-system only would also help take care of it, but that certainly ain't gonna happen.

 

[Baditude]

From James Jarvis, President of the Ohio Vaper Trade Association:

Amazing recap of what happened yesterday at the White House. I will forever be thankful for what Tony Abboud and Gregory Conley did for our industry, the flavors and small independent businesses and the 13 million Vapers in the USA. Very proud moment for our industry. And yes VTAs 21 and done plan was handed personally to the President by Tony himself during the portion not televised.

From Matthew Salter:
So as i scroll through my news feed, im seeing people ask "why didn't Tony and Greg throw pod systems and high nicotine under the bus, why didn't they expose that issue?!?!"

1 ) There was a group of people also at the table known as NACS or the National Association of Convenient Stores. These guys have been in these same battles we have been for a lot longer. They are 4 times larger than we are, with way more funding and way more employee jobs on the line.
They are the true wild card in any hearing or political situtation.
If we .... on them, they have the power to help our opponent destroy us. If we run the line and keep them on our good side, it adds a powerful ally to our midst.

2 ) Demonizing any form of harm reduction / whether high risk or not, most notably in terms of tobacco, makes us look divided and weak to politicians. The President only has so much time during the day, and for roughly 2 hours yesterday (there was more meeting that we didnt see), the President devoted his time to making sure that the small business owners of this industry had a voice.

3 ) Gregory Conley has and always will, be a true harm reduction advocate. He has publically supported snus, NRT products, Vaping, etc. If it has the power to help a human live a reduced risk lifestyle, Greg is all about it.

4 ) Tony Abboud knows the importance of fighting for the entire industry. Something i felt known to be true yesterday. Tony pointed out that pods and flavors have a place, in adult only - age verified stores with face to face transactions. We constantly cry about not wanting to lose any of our rights, so why fight for the loss of one now.

5 ) 21 and Done. The Vtas 21 and done plan ( IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ IT ), encompasses most of what everyone wants. Its the first comprehensive plan i have seen not only set forth, but as of yesterday, LITERALLY PUT INTO THE HANDS OF THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN AMERICA!

In conclusion, CHILL OUT! Yesterday was more than we could've ever hoped for and the 2 people from our industry who went to do battle, came out victorious!

---James Jarvis, President of the Ohio Vaper Trade Association

 

[LoveVanilla]

As far as teens go, the problem with underage purchases can be controlled by requiring that vape products be sold only to those who are over 21. Yes, there will be illegal purchases made by those who look older than their years and by those who fake an ID successfully, but the bottom line will be fewer sales to underage buyers. A valid drivers license that proves age is very hard to fake in my state with all the holographic features used.

After the report on Colorado teens, seems consequences for underage retail sales are simply not high enough for current circumstance. I want to preserve my right to vape and minimize underage access — and am unwilling to sacrifice to those looking for easy money. Seven warnings before suspension is absurd. Retailers either need to sell responsibly or not at all. Seems this hole needs to be plugged.

Edit: Anyone have a link to '21 and Done'?

 

[Eskie]

Lets hope that cooler heads prevail in the decisions about the future of e-cigs. We know that e-cigs are the cure for smokers. We know that there's over 10 years of history with no health issues caused by vaping until people starting adding dangerous chemicals to their vape. If Mr. Trump reviews the data he'll see that vaping can cure smokers of a habit that results in early death and expensive medical treatment costs.

As far as teens go, the problem with underage purchases can be controlled by requiring that vape products be sold only to those who are over 21. Yes, there will be illegal purchases made by those who look older than their years and by those who fake an ID successfully, but the bottom line will be fewer sales to underage buyers. A valid drivers license that proves age is very hard to fake in my state with all the holographic features used.

Trump is not reviewing any data on this. He doesn't even like to read his morning security briefs. If he sees it on Twitter or FOX he'll be aware (yes, sadly, I do think all the tweets had an impact on him). He is supposed to be able to rely on his aides and Azar/Hahn (once confirmed) as his information sources. He's not going to Google and read ECF. He heard the medical experts in the room say there was no evidence vaping reduces smoking or aids in cessation (despite published studies, and in the case of the ACS, flat out guidance if that's the only way to stop smoking, go for it).

As to flavors, yes, age verification and enforcement is the best solution. The crap about they vape it for bubble gum flavors and don't know it contains nicotine is just that, crap. And how about local LE actually enforcing by handing our summonses in front of high schools for kids both vaping and smoking? I've never seen that happen once. If someone has, please share as I'd like to beleive there's one PD that's responsible.

I've come to the decision that now we're at the end of November, the whole flavor thing is just a distraction. Everyone in the industry and this board is understandably concentrating on fighting these bans, but in 6 months it will be a moot point. That's still the real battle that needs to be fought. And so far I've seen no plan on how to address and lobby and push for some change for that apocalyptic event for the vaping industry. Sure, most of us are stocked up by now. But I'd still like to believe there may be some innovative product that might be released that I could look forward to buying. And I don't see that happening after Deeming regs kick in. Maybe some high end limited run stuff from the EU/Russia or some consumer Chinese stuff we might get smuggled quietly shipped in, but I don't know if the rest of the world will generate enough demand for new vape products to be developed. With India, the US, and effectively China (as a domestic market) that's over 2 Billion people without legal access.I'd hate to be writing my business plan for post Deeming unless I had the capital and connections BT does.

 

[Horselady154]

Agreed, he is thinking about votes.

If you look around that room, who represented the most votes? The pro-vape or the anti-vape? Me thinks we were greatly outnumbered.

Thing is, and he knows this too, that those using government to get special advantage, are not the people who are going to vote for him anyway. A whole lot of vapers though, I believe, did.

 

[stols001]

I hate it when I agree with @Eskie on the deeming thread. He's so logical and pessimistic.

Although ,since I have no crystal ball I just am gonna wait and see. My magic 8 ball says,"Trump cannot be predicted." it's kind of something I like about him, he's definitely the Joker. In some games, that is good, in others not so much.

Yeah, so it's s a hurry up and wait thing.

Anna

 

[Bronze]

Agreed, he is thinking about votes.

If you look around that room, who represented the most votes? The pro-vape or the anti-vape? Me thinks we were greatly outnumbered.

Pro-vaping voices were drowned out in that meeting...the portion of it we saw. That's not a knock on our side. I thought they did a fantastic job given the small platform they had. If Trump listened to the loudest voices we will lose hands down. If he does what he thinks is right, we will win. I have no idea where he'll fall on this issue. Hearsay and pontification in the media means nothing.

From James Jarvis, President of the Ohio Vaper Trade Association:

Amazing recap of what happened yesterday at the White House. I will forever be thankful for what Tony Abboud and Gregory Conley did for our industry, the flavors and small independent businesses and the 13 million Vapers in the USA. Very proud moment for our industry. And yes VTAs 21 and done plan was handed personally to the President by Tony himself during the portion not televised.

From Matthew Salter:
So as i scroll through my news feed, im seeing people ask "why didn't Tony and Greg throw pod systems and high nicotine under the bus, why didn't they expose that issue?!?!"

1 ) There was a group of people also at the table known as NACS or the National Association of Convenient Stores. These guys have been in these same battles we have been for a lot longer. They are 4 times larger than we are, with way more funding and way more employee jobs on the line.
They are the true wild card in any hearing or political situtation.
If we .... on them, they have the power to help our opponent destroy us. If we run the line and keep them on our good side, it adds a powerful ally to our midst.

2 ) Demonizing any form of harm reduction / whether high risk or not, most notably in terms of tobacco, makes us look divided and weak to politicians. The President only has so much time during the day, and for roughly 2 hours yesterday (there was more meeting that we didnt see), the President devoted his time to making sure that the small business owners of this industry had a voice.

3 ) Gregory Conley has and always will, be a true harm reduction advocate. He has publically supported snus, NRT products, Vaping, etc. If it has the power to help a human live a reduced risk lifestyle, Greg is all about it.

4 ) Tony Abboud knows the importance of fighting for the entire industry. Something i felt known to be true yesterday. Tony pointed out that pods and flavors have a place, in adult only - age verified stores with face to face transactions. We constantly cry about not wanting to lose any of our rights, so why fight for the loss of one now.

5 ) 21 and Done. The Vtas 21 and done plan ( IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ IT ), encompasses most of what everyone wants. Its the first comprehensive plan i have seen not only set forth, but as of yesterday, LITERALLY PUT INTO THE HANDS OF THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN AMERICA!

In conclusion, CHILL OUT! Yesterday was more than we could've ever hoped for and the 2 people from our industry who went to do battle, came out victorious!

---James Jarvis, President of the Ohio Vaper Trade Association

I agree with Salter when he's defending Conley and Abboud. But if he believes we got more than we could have ever hoped for then we were watching two different meetings.

I've come to the decision that now we're at the end of November, the whole flavor thing is just a distraction. Everyone in the industry and this board is understandably concentrating on fighting these bans, but in 6 months it will be a moot point. That's still the real battle that needs to be fought.

I've always felt this way. I am happy that Conley voiced this concern yesterday. I believe Abboud did as well. It is vitally important Trump hear about May Deeming.

 

[Eskie]

If I were CASAA or the VTA and really wanted to grind out a very targeted effort, I'd email blast calls to actions in all the districts Trump carried in the swing states like PA and FL in 2016, and get those vaping residents to email, call, all the good stuff, specifying their location and their views on the issue. He needs to carry those same districts in 2020, and they matter a lot more than just pouring in responses from places like NY and CA that he won't carry no matter what he does. That's the kind of sophisticated lobbying you see from deep pocket BT and other industries.

The VTA just got $500K from Smok, and maybe getting politically aggressive in targeting with the election in mind may be a good strategy right now. It seems like jobs and votes are what count to him (well, to any candidate looking for a job) and those are the pressure points his pollsters need to take into consideration running the numbers for him. Those types of targeted campaigns aren't as difficult as they used to be. Identify the zip codes from the 2016 records and use say CASAA's membership list to start with.It might not generate the sheer numbers of all vapers contacting him, but if the responses were worded to flat out identify those folks as carrying more weight despite the smaller number of contact attempts. It may well be time to play the Electoral College game by the vaping industry to gain more leverage to counter the save the children crowd.

 

[zoiDman]

Can someone help me decode this part????
listing changes:
"(2) in section 2A(b)(1) (15 U.S.C. 376a(b)(1)), by inserting “NICOTINE/” after “CIGARETTES/”."

Here's the link to the bill from WorksForMe's link [USC02] 15 USC 376a: Delivery sales

I guess I'm stupid, because finding section 2A(b)(1) confused me. But this, I think, would impact online order delivery of nicotine.

The rest of the changes I understood.

EDIT:
The only reference to "CIGARETTES/" is in the top section about labeling. So maybe it's nothing if that's the section, it's just talking about taxes and labeling the package as containing nicotine.

So it would read:


"Tax Stamping Obligations"? This would imply stamping regulation would apply. E.G. Tax Stamps.

I think this is all getting back to the "Signature required" thing, and the USPS not delivering such, too. I suspect. But tax-stamps? That could cause retailers problems if they require it for nic. ????

Here is some Old Guidance from the ATF.

https://www.atf.gov/alcohol-tobacco...afficking-pact-act-information-guide/download

Ever time you see "Cigarettes" referenced, mentally replace it with "Cigarettes/Nicotine".

 

[bnrkwest]

In my opinion, the guy from NJOY argued our case much better than Greg. Greg's style wasn't the best for that kind of meeting; he pretty much hung back.

I don't know what is giong to come out of this.

I was impressed with NJOY, he did a great job.

 

[stols001]

NJOY was my first vape! I quite easily and happily for 6 weeks then went and got a super stressful job I smoked on the way to the interview. Oh well, all is well that ends well I guess.

This is the deeming thread though and since Trump is now involved, we are all going to disagree with each other.

I will say one thing about Trump, he gets people talking, and maybe even more active, politically. I can't say that is a bad thing. Our country has been way too apathetic.

Love him or hate him I bet more people vote the next eledction

Anna

 

[LoveVanilla]

I was impressed with NJOY, he did a great job.

Agreed — Njoy played it well. It was, however, by virtue of Conley gaining Trump's ear and laying out a complex and nuanced position in a few, well-considered, and impactful words that it was possible. I can hardly imagine a more high-risk, stressful, and hostile environment under which to advance one's position. We owe them our deep gratitude. But a few short weeks ago, with a richly-funded propaganda campaign funding fake "public health", and widely propagated by media, we faced a presidential proclamation to "ban the vape". Thanks to the truly extraordinary effort of many, our fortunes may have changed — at least for now.

 

[Bronze]

Ed Henry is about to do a vaping segment on Fox News.

 

[englishmick]

The VTA just got $500K from Smok,

The flavor ban push has definitely brought the vape industry into the fight. Now all the on-line vendors are putting out info and promoting call-in campaigns. I hadn't heard that about Smok. We've been complaining for years about the lack of action from their side. If they had used their money to finance a public relations campaign all along we might be in a stronger position now. Better late than never though.

 

[Bronze]

Ed Henry is about to do a vaping segment on Fox News.

Nothing worth reporting. A bunch of mealy-mouth junk.