Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
- Thread starter Oliver
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Now that was funny! My cheeks hurt from smiling so hard. lmaoNo, he was a GOOD attorney, and it only took him about 50 min!
Thanks, I'll edit!
You have to be of considerable size to play with the FDA. Big pharma does it all the time. They ignore half the warning letters they get, and have plenty of in house and outside attorneys all ready and waiting. Fines are the cost of doing business (well, true in many others, just look at UPS and FedEx in urban areas, they deal with parking fines as part of the delivery fee, in NYC they even get a cut rate on their tickets through a deal they worked out to assure even cash flow for both the city and them)
However, they won’t ignore an issue that can shut down a manufacturing plant or have inventory quarantined. Those can get expensive. And for a vape shop or small manufacturer that’s what they’ll face, seizure of “adulterated” products (unapproved is considered adulterated) and forcible closure of the facility. Now you have no cash flow, payments in rent, salaries, and wholesalers that still must be made. Unless you’re very well capitalized (juul) good luck surviving a few months of that (even a few weeks for many).
The other issue you face is even if you do have deep pockets and are willing to fight, remember, they made the rules. Good luck mounting a defense for selling an unapproved product just because you think the rules are unfair and a PMTA is too expensive.
I have on more than one occasion had businesses where I had firms on retainer and someone in house for the little stuff and coordinating outside counsel if it ever happened. Any issue, big or small, started out with the same decision process. Not whether I was right or wrong, but what was the lowest cost to resolve the problem.
I do feel really bad for the shop owners. What’s happening to them is horrendous. But giving false hope you might be small enough to stay under the radar is a helluva big bet of someone’s assets.
Not sure how many shops we'll see try to weather the storm. As we have learned, many of these dolts who own vape shops don't even know anything about Deeming regulations so it's unlikely they will know anything about their business being illegal. You go in their shop and ask them about their plans when the regs take effect and they look at you like you have an ironing board growing out of your head. "Like dude, you're so righteous, Man. How tubular!". I hate to say it, but the average intelligence of a vape shop owner isn't very inspiring. But to be fair, there are some very good ones too. Those will be the ones to find another way to make a living.
Too true. Last shop I visited a couple months ago, when I mentioned May to them, they were in the dark. Told me condescendingly "no, we don't mix juice here anymore, so that doesn't apply to us." Then "we're grandfathered in." They had no clue at all. I didn't have the time to engage further, but told them they ought to look it up, that they would be surprised.
Most all B&M's and online vendors are currently selling unapproved products, with no enforcement.
Will they continue after May 12?... IDK
I'm guessing the FDA will target large shipments coming through customs.
Cut off the supply line, the vendors shut down.
Just a guess at this point.
Will they continue after May 12?... IDK
I'm guessing the FDA will target large shipments coming through customs.
Cut off the supply line, the vendors shut down.
Just a guess at this point.
Local flavor bans here in WA have already caused many shops to close, since juice is the big money maker. And even though, for now, they can still sell hardware. When that, too, goes away, well, hard to stay in business if there's nothing to sell.
Chef’s sells short fills that are exactly that. It’s the flavored eliquid without nicotine with enough room in the bottle for a nic shot.
OK, but five violations over the course of three years before anything happened besides letters being sent, and even now, all that's happened is another letter "ordering" them not to sell tobacco products for what, a few weeks? I guess it's possible there have also been some fines, but I doesn't sound like men with guns showed up to haul people to jail either.
I'm not suggesting shop owners fight; I don't believe they can win. I'm suggesting they passively resist. I believe that's what I would do if I were in that business. Close when I had to, either because the business was no longer profitable, or when literally forced to, but not before.
True, but I just figured they'd be able to buy their way out of it. For all I know they have and that's why they're only not allowed to sell for a few weeks. And sure, financial impact of this on a grocery store is likely to be minimal, but to a vape/tobacco only vendor it would be much worse.
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Yeah, except I don't know exactly when passive resistance may turn into "you committed a crime" and the vape shops don't, either. I mean.... Order a whole bunch of nic for my passive resistance and then, arrests start happening?
Dude, I don't think I could ever live that way. I'm no Rosa Parks that is for sure.
Anna
Dude, I don't think I could ever live that way. I'm no Rosa Parks that is for sure.
Anna
I'm not even sure it's a passive resistance deal. The questions that will really come up over the next 12 months for the average shop will be not only should they sign a lease if their current one is up for renewal, but will the landlord even offer a lease? Offering a lease to a business that can be forced to close isn't a wise real estate decision. What happens with distributors/wholesalers? Will they shift from terms like NET 30 or 60 to COD only, out of fear of not being paid for inventory delivered that may get seized? Will there be another run of merchant accounts cancelled for credit card payments when the banks feel it too risky to service a business at risk of closure? Then there are individual state pressures that may intensify after May, as they can take a position these products are not approved for sale to their state residents?
It's more than a fear of a knock on the door by the FDA, but all the secondary pressures that will be created that may do in many small shops.
It's more than a fear of a knock on the door by the FDA, but all the secondary pressures that will be created that may do in many small shops.
Congress would have to make it a crime. Right now it's a civil infraction; shops would be in violation of a regulation, not a criminal law.
Depends on how much demand there is for that space. Many, if not most vape shops are in strip malls that have empty space already. If I were the owner of such real estate, I'd want the shop to stay open and paying rent for as long as possible. Heck, I'd probably offer them a month-to-month lease.
If I were a shop owner, one of my biggest worries would be whether I'd be able to replenish inventory after May, particularly juice. The ones who've bucked the system and kept mixing their own vs. becoming reliant on some large FDA-registered "lab" to buy it from may actually be in better shape and be able to hold out longer.
Guess that's the difference between a black market and a grey market. Plenty of people would be willing to operate in a grey market. They might be different people than operated in a completely legal market. They take a bit of a chance doing it, and their customers would have to take a chance too.
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