Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Katya

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I'd say that sums it up pretty well.

I am having a discussion with my wife regarding IQ requirements for voting.
It's a heated topic here in this house right now.

She is currently researching a quote from (we think it was) Plato.
But basically, those most qualified to rule do NOT want any part of being a ruler.

Yeah, that's about the size and shape of it.

I'm rather fond of the parable of the bramble. :)

Daily Devotion

"When Gideon died his son Abimelech wanted to become king over the nation of Israel. He was corrupt as well as ambitious, murdering his brothers who might have given him competition for the position. But Jotham, one of the survivors of this crime, showed up at the coronation and told a parable of the trees (Judges 9:7-20).

He told how one day the trees went out to anoint a king over them. The olive tree declined because it had more important work to do in providing olive oil. The fig tree declined the office because it had to produce its wonderful fruit. The vine would not be king over the trees because it had to produce wine that cheered the heart. Finally the trees asked the bramble bush to be king. The bramble bush said that if the trees really wanted him to be their king, then they should come and take refuge in his shade; but if they did not, fire would come out and consume even the cedars of Lebanon, the proudest of all the trees.

The point, of course, is that Abimelech is this bramble bush. But what does this say about the new king and his reign. A close study of the bramble bush, or thorn bush as it is sometimes translated, will show that whatever grows up under its branches becomes hopelessly tangled and cannot thrive. Moreover, the root system of the bramble is large, taking up all the water that might go to the surrounding trees. They cannot survive in the area of the bramble bush. And finally, the bramble bush produces nothing of value for the community."
 

Lessifer

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I believe that the cessation part of it also was discouraged as part of the "we aren't using it as a drug" in the first go around.
Yeah, we've had to walk a fine line between "vaping helped ME quit smoking" and "vaping could help YOU quit smoking" and it's a bit ridiculous.
While that's true, without any question...

The Clouds Bro!! folks have not helped us garner public support.
In fact, just the opposite.

I know people don't like to hear that.
But it is truly indisputable.

And public support was what we needed more than anything.

The public does not want to see big clouds spewing forth.
And I've seen these Clouds Bro!! folks in action in large shopping malls.

Those douchebags are nothing but douchebags.
And yeah, I know, there's a ......... born every minute.

I wish we could get rid of douchebags.
But sadly, we were all born douchebags, and had to outgrow it.
I understand what you're saying, but like nicnik I've never encountered this myself, probably because I don't get out much. My main interactions with non-smokers tend to be people who know me, some of them have loved ones that I've helped switch to vaping, so for the most part, I feel a lot of support.

It's very hard keeping up with this thread - I take a break for an afternoon and there are 10 more pages!!

My thought is this, and it might sound stupid and totally unplausible as I know nothing about foreign trade. BUT, if China is upset about this new FDA regulation (I am sure they have many other countries besides the US that they sell vaping equipment/juices to), wouldn't it be nice if someone knew someone who was high up in the China government and convinced them to stop allowing certain imports from the US to China that would really create a big mess for us? I have no idea if we even import anything to China but if we do, and I were China, I would cut that off big time and try to make a deal!!
Unfortunately I don't think China cares much about vaping. Yes, they have a lot of money in manufacturing vapor products, but they could easily switch that over to something else in the blink of an eye. The Chinese government's stance on vaping is still unclear, the tobacco companies there are largely owned and operated by the government.
 

skoony

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The Clouds Bro!! folks have not helped us garner public support.
In fact, just the opposite.

I know people don't like to hear that.
But it is truly indisputable.

And public support was what we needed more than anything.

The public does not want to see big clouds spewing forth.
And I've seen these Clouds Bro!! folks in action in large shopping malls.
Strangely enough I am unaware of any statistics or incidents every being reported
in the news or at any government meetings or by any government official,non
profit or individual concerning any actual complaints of rude vaping behavior being
reported to authorities or news media or any e-cigarette forum I have read in the
almost three years I have been vaping. Not one. I may have missed something
but, no has ever provided a link or source concerning this when I have mentioned this
in the past. This only seems to be a concern of us vapers.

Our opponents are against vaping in no mater whatform or where it occurs.
They need not concern themselves with a specific category of vaping such as rudeness
and, they don't. So why do we do this for them?
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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Some of you may find this interesting.

Losing the vaping debate.

Going back about 50 pages to the discussion about who should be the "president" of the "movement"; all other nominees are now obsolete.

It's the guy who wrote this.
That's the guy.
CASAA, hire him. Now. Make your chief executive a VP or something, and make this guy the new head of the operation.
 
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Lessifer

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Going back about 50 pages to the discussion about who should be the "president" of the "movement"; all other nominees are now obsolete.

It's the guy who wrote this.
That's the guy.
CASAA, hire him. Now. Make your chief executive a VP or something, and make this guy the new head of the operation.
That's funny, since he actively alienates a significant portion of vapers who are active in advocacy.

I'll bet you a dollar that you'll find more CASAA members at a vaping competition than you will out of all the people that buy vapor products at a given convenience store in a week.
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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He was doing a good job, with good writing, until at the end of the page, he began shaming cloud chasers as a lead in to part two. Not gonna click on part two. I'm not interested in diverting the shaming we get, by shaming another group, other than the vape-shaming, lying conspirators.

Then you're the one losing out.
The only thing he "blamed" cloud chasers for was for not helping the situation. He never said any of this was their fault, only that the image they've created of vaping plays poorly in the court of public opinion.

And he was damned right about it, too.

Everyone who is expressing their outrage here is using one of two avenues; infringement of personal freedoms, and/or stifling of harm-reduction.

The author makes no apoligies for the personal freedom aspect, and, in fact, plays strongly to the theme throughout the series.

But, the point he was making was that we needed to make this about the harm-reduction, so we can get the general, non-vaping, anti-smoking public behind us.

Then, only after we win them over on the harm reduction, can we express our righteous indignation and expect their support and sympathy.

You really owe it to yourself to read the whole series. It is a work of rhetorical art.
 

mudram99

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Unfortunately I don't think China cares much about vaping. Yes, they have a lot of money in manufacturing vapor products, but they could easily switch that over to something else in the blink of an eye.
YUP, with minor retooling, you could come home to find your wife/girlfriend giggling in the bedroom with a vibrating "Lavabox"! :eek:
 

Bob Chill

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That's funny, since he actively alienates a significant portion of vapers who are active in advocacy.

I'll bet you a dollar that you'll find more CASAA members at a vaping competition than you will out of all the people that buy vapor products at a given convenience store in a week.

This is true. And I personally would have worded things differently if I was writing something like that. But the point is valid to some extent. I've witnessed plenty of "in your face" behavior with vaping. Big clouds or not. I've seen it in malls, NFL games, food festivals, crowded beach boardwalks, and other places where there are large gatherings of people.

I get the rebellious intentions of some. Heck, I was a rebel as a teen. Drove my parents crazy but damn it sure was fun. On this particular issue it's a bit sensitive because the inevitable "reigning in" was coming. It's been on the table for many years. Perception may not be reality but perception is still really important. Smokers are already a big minority in the public's eye. Vapers are even a smaller group and they stand out more because of the newness of everything. If the standouts in the subculture project a rebellious or "in your face" attitude it brings negative attention at a time where we need positive public perception.

In a perfect scenario in regards to gaining public support, if the only vapers were personal space respecting users who used common courtesy above all else then the perception would be different right now. I was never a fan of people using the "it's not smoking so I can do it wherever I want" attitude. The world isn't ready for that yet. The world is still trying to figure out exactly what this stuff is all about.
 

nicnik

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You really owe it to yourself to read the whole series. It is a work of rhetorical art.
I think he's a good writer, but I see a hole in his sense of ethics.

With all the shaming we've had heaped on us when smoking, and now vaping, I see it as a poison, to be used only in self defense against a mortal enemy. No cloud chasers have ever attcked me, and some in the local vape shops, have gone out of their way to help me.
 

coldgin96

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Pretty much sums things up ... however, this time it will backfire.

Forget the lawsuits from vendors ... watch for the lawsuits from folks who have lost loved ones.
There's a idea. I have COPD, emphysema, pulmonary fibrosis and heart failure. I am O2 dependent. Maybe I should sue saying if I'm forced to smoke to get my nicotine, it will absolutely kill me and fast. Nah, they'll just say there's other avenues.
 

skoony

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This is true. And I personally would have worded things differently if I was writing something like that. But the point is valid to some extent. I've witnessed plenty of "in your face" behavior with vaping. Big clouds or not. I've seen it in malls, NFL games, food festivals, crowded beach boardwalks, and other places where there are large gatherings of people.
This is another thing that befuddles me. You seem to have enough encounters with rude
vaping behavior to last a life time while 99.9% of the vapers here on the forum including
myself have never witnessed a single incident. Is this an East Coast thing?
Regards
Mike
 
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Lessifer

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This is true. And I personally would have worded things differently if I was writing something like that. But the point is valid to some extent. I've witnessed plenty of "in your face" behavior with vaping. Big clouds or not. I've seen it in malls, NFL games, food festivals, crowded beach boardwalks, and other places where there are large gatherings of people.

I get the rebellious intentions of some. Heck, I was a rebel as a teen. Drove my parents crazy but damn it sure was fun. On this particular issue it's a bit sensitive because the inevitable "reigning in" was coming. It's been on the table for many years. Perception may not be reality but perception is still really important. Smokers are already a big minority in the public's eye. Vapers are even a smaller group and they stand out more because of the newness of everything. If the standouts in the subculture project a rebellious or "in your face" attitude it brings negative attention at a time where we need positive public perception.

In a perfect scenario in regards to gaining public support, if the only vapers were personal space respecting users who used common courtesy above all else then the perception would be different right now. I was never a fan of people using the "it's not smoking so I can do it wherever I want" attitude. The world isn't ready for that yet. The world is still trying to figure out exactly what this stuff is all about.
Again, I understand the argument, and there is a bit of truth to it. However, there's another aspect. If the only vapers that existed were those that no one ever sees or notices, how much different would public opinion really be? The FDA, CDC, etc. would not have run their campaigns any differently, they don't even mention blowing it in people's faces.

I don't advocate being rude, but vaping in public, so people might be able to see that there is nothing to be afraid of, that I do support.
 

Katya

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ocelot_drinking_gun_anime.gif

Just kidding, dear, just kidding....

Seems like old times all up in here! Hello from Flip and Slip!
We're still vaping away so I guess I need to catch up with the latest FDA aka BT shenanigans, eh?

Hello, there, Steph! :)

National Review's been our friend in the vape fight. This one's from Rich Lowry.

FDA vaping regulations misguided











comments.lowry@nationalreview.com

Right on!

I used to spend most of my time in the new members forum, but now I have very little to say. I can't keep up with the new products. Thank goodness for @Susan~S

So did I... Now I have no idea what they are talking about.... :lol:

@Susan~S rules!

Indeed i am single.


Ahem, shouldn't those kinds of transactions be handled in the classified section per ECF TOS? Robino?

The 'pesticide' route isn't likely to work. Neonicotinoid pesticides (chemically related to nicotine) are being linked to bee colony collapse. I don't know the evidence, but it makes it less likely that nic itself would be allowed as a pesticide.

Oh, I didn't know that. So sad... But I was only kidding, really

No PM as of yet. I'll have to check and see if @Ryedan is single.

Get in line, love! Besides, he's a dog person! :D
 

Bob Chill

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This is another thing that befuddles me. You seem to have enough encounters with rude
vaping behavior to last a life time while 99.9% of the vapers here on the forum including
myself have never witnessed a single incident. Is this an East Coast thing?
Regards
Mike


Probably more of a factor that I live in a very crowded area. I've seen the some of the same stuff when visiting my sister in Manhattan and a friend of mine in Chicago mentioned the same.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in favor if freedom on the issue as long as common courtesy is part of it. My area isn't well known for common courtesy about anything. Especially driving...lol
 

Katya

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I followed the links to send my local officials emails and such. I just got this response just now to my email:
ETA: I'm in North Carolina.
Dear Mrs. Crook:

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts regarding H.R. 2058, the FDA Deeming Authority Clarification Act of 2015. I appreciate hearing from you.

As you know, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is expected to finalize regulations for electronic cigarettes in 2015. In a bizarre example of the Obama administration creating novel definitions to words with otherwise plain meaning, the FDA has decided to regulate electronic cigarettes as tobacco products even though electronic cigarettes do not contain tobacco. These regulations will apply to e-cigarettes released into the market after February 15, 2007. Since the majority of these products did not exist prior to this date, nearly all e-cigarette products will be affected by these new regulations coming out of FDA.

On April 28, 2015, Representative Tom Cole (R-OK) introduced H.R. 2058, which was referred to the House Energy and Commerce Committee before being referred to the Subcommittee on Health. If enacted, H.R. 2058 would prevent FDA from banning tobacco products that have been introduced to the market after 2007.

I understand your concerns with the Federal Drug Administration's regulation of electronic cigarettes and agree that e-cigarettes should not be subject to tobacco product regulations, since they are, in fact, products that contain exactly no tobacco.The out-of-control executive branch regulatory regime has hurt our economy, as evidenced by the unacceptable economic stagnation we have been experiencing for far too long. If H.R. 2058 comes before the Senate, I will support it.

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact me. It is important to hear from citizens on issues that affect the state and the nation. Please do not hesitate to get in touch with me again about other important issues.

Sincerely,


-3lTw17BSr5Qy6cdh9I3QjAxgW2jMTqxV2b2G1mn-FEzxVTwY3DkIflJdW7KT7yXYqRGBcszKrB6PeWv02L9j2ySVJBK4LBx5NfTLcUUDYJ2nimMsLLleZbNBdpKnt_IYP1xo7yrOEWc3A=s0-d-e1-ft

Thom Tillis
U.S. Senator

Made my day.:toast:

Back to work.

Carry on!
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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That's funny, since he actively alienates a significant portion of vapers who are active in advocacy...

If you think that, then you tragically missed his point.
And, if it's true, that he did alienate them, then they're too sensitive to win this fight.

The point was not that it was their fault, or that he thought that the cloud rings and T&A marketing were "wrong" or to blame for any of this, rather, just that they did nothing to win over the public's sympathy to the plight of our harm-reduction and personal freedom.

At one point, he even says something to the effect that they are justified in doing all those things, if for no other reason than they're fun.

But, that comes with the caveat that it is not the image that is going to win us the war.

To win the war, we need A LOT more people than just people who actively vape on our side. To have any hope of winning this, we need people who don't and never will vape to come out in support of our cause.

He draws a brief parallel to the gay-rights movement. Even though he didn't develop it fully, the nexus of his idea made the point. The gay-rights movement went, in just a few years' time, from the general public opinion being "that's disgusting", to "fine, I just don't want to see it" to straight people going out and voting in support of gay issues.

That shift in public opinion didn't happen because of gay people openly groping each other in family restaurants. No anti-gay straight person ever changed their minds about gay rights and started voting in their favor after watching the banana-hammock clad, pink-boa wearing, dildo waving dudes dancing on a float in a gay-pride parade. Sure, it was those folks right to do that, but those were not the things that won them the public's sympathy.

What changed the public's minds was marketing targeted at them. Things like celebrities supporting gay rights, facts snipped into sound-bite sized pieces, and a calculated, mature plea to show some humanity and support an oppressed people - those are how the gay-rights movement won straight voters to their side.

Right now, we need to win the anti-smoking and the ambivalent-to-smoking crowd's support. We need to distance our "thing" from smoking, and get the support of people who have no vested interest in our cause to support it. No one is going to see a news blub about a cloud competition going down at the local shop, see some kids blowing smoke rings, and chicks in bikinis and decide to change their mind about vaping.

If we can't read an article like the one being discussed, and not get hung up on the fact that someone thinks that everything we do is not "awesome", then we're not even ready to take the fight to the general public.
 

nicnik

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This is true. And I personally would have worded things differently if I was writing something like that. But the point is valid to some extent.
OK. But I'll reserve shaming for those who lie, cheat and steal, to try to kill vaping, in spite of all the death and destruction resulting from their greed.
 

DC2

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Again, I understand the argument, and there is a bit of truth to it. However, there's another aspect. If the only vapers that existed were those that no one ever sees or notices, how much different would public opinion really be? The FDA, CDC, etc. would not have run their campaigns any differently, they don't even mention blowing it in people's faces.
If we were all being completely honest...
The public would be best won over by subtle little tootle puff exhales...

I think we all know that.
And I understand the hesitance to either admit or accept that.

I don't agree with it myself.
But I can't change the fact that it is indeed fact.
 

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