Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

What created the assumption was that you posted immediately after my posts.. I know exactly what I said, but you made comment right after my post, then had this elongated conversation which to me, made no sense other than you didn't like what I said somehow, as, you said all of it after I posted..

You don't have to quote someone to give the sense it is them you are speaking to or about.. many people here don't quote posts yet speak to the post specifically, when they post immediately after what they are responding to.

Ok, I'll clarify. Your post was part of a group of posts, about emotional liberals, etc. which really had no bearing on this thread, which was the basis for my initial nudge.

After that I got into the discussion with bronze about how all vaping debates are political and then went on from there.

I'm not passive aggressive, if I had a problem with a specific post of yours, I would have addressed you directly.

Whenever the thread starts going that way there tends to be a split between the more liberal and the more conservative among us and then things get ugly or the discussion stops. This thread has been on the brink of being closed or moved multiple times. I don't think it needs to go that way.

 

[Opinionated]

Ok, I'll clarify. Your post was part of a group of posts, about emotional liberals, etc. which really had no bearing on this thread, which was the basis for my initial nudge.

After that I got into the discussion with bronze about how all vaping debates are political and then went on from there.

I'm not passive aggressive, if I had a problem with a specific post of yours, I would have addressed you directly.

Whenever the thread starts going that way there tends to be a split between the more liberal and the more conservative among us and then things get ugly or the discussion stops. This thread has been on the brink of being closed or moved multiple times. I don't think it needs to go that way.

I didn't say a darn thing about liberals.. nor did I notice anyone hammering on liberals specifically.. there were general statements made, about generalities in this country, when I jumped in and made two very general statements.

I'm sure if someone disagrees with the comments, they can say so..

 

[Lessifer]

I didn't say a darn thing about liberals.. nor did I notice anyone hammering on liberals specifically.. there were general statements made, about generalities in this country, when I jumped in and made two very general statements.

I'm sure if someone disagrees with the comments, they can say so..

I'm not sure how else to be clear about this, while my first post in this streak may have included you, none of my posts, including that one, were directly in response to you.

You seem to be very upset about this, I'm sorry if I've upset you and made this no longer a safe space for you. That's a joke by the way.

 

[Opinionated]

I'm not sure how else to be clear about this, while my first post in this streak may have included you, none of my posts, including that one, were directly in response to you.

You seem to be very upset about this, I'm sorry if I've upset you and made this no longer a safe space for you. That's a joke by the way.

Your going on and on about the attack on "liberals" which I just went back and read all the posts and saw no attack on liberals.. I see general statements which you, or anyone else, I'm sure is free to disagree with..

Perhaps you have a love of politicians or the way California elects people to office or paying taxes? I don't know, personally I know nothing about how California holds their elections or anything else about the state, I've never so much as stepped foot in that state so I cannot agree or disagree with that one, but the rest we can all make comment one way or the other, or so one would assume, this being a forum and all where vaping is darn near about to be under prohibition due to outrageous and overreaching laws and taxes.

Perhaps you don't agree with general statements that others made (apparently not myself). I don't know.. but to come up with talk about being obstinate and every other thing you have said about all the posts, in my opinion (I have lots of those) is looking for something to be irritated with and or complain about.. your being jumpy, in my opinion, rather than having an opinion of your own.

As far as my safe space, I didn't find it very humorous.. if your going to make a joke at least choose something that hasn't been beat into the ground by all and sundry.. Perhaps a spark of originality would be better..it might make me laugh - should that be your intent.

 

[coldgin96]

 

[zoiDman]

CDC: E-cigarettes more popular than FDA-approved quitting aids | R Street

 

[Lessifer]

Your going on and on about the attack on "liberals" which I just went back and read all the posts and saw no attack on liberals.. I see general statements which you, or anyone else, I'm sure is free to disagree with..

Perhaps you have a love of politicians or the way California elects people to office or paying taxes? I don't know, personally I know nothing about how California holds their elections or anything else about the state, I've never so much as stepped foot in that state so I cannot agree or disagree with that one, but the rest we can all make comment one way or the other, or so one would assume, this being a forum and all where vaping is darn near about to be under prohibition due to outrageous and overreaching laws and taxes.

Perhaps you don't agree with general statements that others made (apparently not myself). I don't know.. but to come up with talk about being obstinate and every other thing you have said about all the posts, in my opinion (I have lots of those) is looking for something to be irritated with and or complain about.. your being jumpy, in my opinion, rather than having an opinion of your own.

As far as my safe space, I didn't find it very humorous.. if your going to make a joke at least choose something that hasn't been beat into the ground by all and sundry.. Perhaps a spark of originality would be better..it might make me laugh - should that be your intent.

I really have no desire to discuss partisanship, California Senate elections, who gets money and who earned it and who didn't, at least not in this thread. Those discussions belong in the outside, which is what my initial post said. Anything more that you've read into that came from you, not from me.

So, to bring this back to the deeming regs, here's Rep. Hunter's proposed legislation:
https://www.regulatorwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/CSREVA115-APR-21-2017-vr..pdf

Thoughts? Is this something we should get behind, should we appeal to him for changes? What are people's thoughts on AEMSA if they're going to be the new standard?

 

[Buckeyevapen]

I could get behind the new proposal by rep Hunter.

It checks off a very valuable long term box: mods and tanks aren't cigarettes, they aren't made out of tobacco and vaping isn't smoking. It practically neuters the deeming regulation.

 

[Opinionated]

I really have no desire to discuss partisanship, California Senate elections, who gets money and who earned it and who didn't, at least not in this thread. Those discussions belong in the outside, which is what my initial post said. Anything more that you've read into that came from you, not from me.

So, to bring this back to the deeming regs, here's Rep. Hunter's proposed legislation:
https://www.regulatorwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/CSREVA115-APR-21-2017-vr..pdf

Thoughts? Is this something we should get behind, should we appeal to him for changes? What are people's thoughts on AEMSA if they're going to be the new standard?

All those things you mentioned as undiscussable, do directly affect the vaping industry.. so I think they rightly could be discussed - however no one forces anyone to join in, nor prevents others from having their own (and valued) opinion, even if it's in disagreement.

That said, I find that proposal to be slightly overreaching, and rather broad and open ended.

Just like their prohibition upon advertising to attract minors.. well that's too broadly worded. There are some in the anti vaping community who believe the e liquid flavors I most enjoy and vape daily, are targeted to children (even though it's adults enjoying them) therefore they shouldn't be available to me for purchase..

Let's face it, I'm 48 years old and have four grandchildren and I like sweet flavors, they are pleasant. My son is 33 and he likes sour apple and Apple pie and other weird, sweet and interesting flavors..

So this leaves that prohibition rather open ended, because who is going to be deciding what is targeting kids and what is targeting a 33 year old who likes candy flavors, or a 48 year old who likes sweets? The who, will decide what the target audience is, and then what? Is someone going to be found having broken a law because they tried to make and sell a product for/to me? I think they should define that to be more narrow than what someone's opinion might be at the time.

And jail time for unapproved e liquid? Really? How will this affect diy? How will it affect my sending my son diy? They planning on putting us in jail?

When taken a whole though, it's not too bad I suppose, God knows they love their ridiculous laws - rather than letting evolution take its course - so this is at least better.

As far as the bill, I think it would be fun to vote on which substance and delivery system is the most harmful.. I vote shisha tobacco.. in a 30 minute session with a pipe there it's like smoking an entire pack of cigarettes.. though wow, brings back some good memories doesn't it? lol.. nothing like shisha and some Turkish coffee.. I haven't made turkish coffee since I stopped drinking coffee..

Anyhow, I really don't know anything about AEMSA.. seems like a bunch of left wingers.. lol.. now that was a joke.

Since we are talking about originality and opinions, why do you ask others for theirs but seem to possess none of your own? You should lead perhaps, if you wish to discuss, with your own opinions.

 

[beckdg]

CDC: E-cigarettes more popular than FDA-approved quitting aids | R Street

The fact is that the CDC has documented with real-world data that e-cigarettes are preferred smoking-cessation aids, negating the argument that evidence is merely “anecdotal”

LOL

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

I really have no desire to discuss partisanship, California Senate elections, who gets money and who earned it and who didn't, at least not in this thread. Those discussions belong in the outside, which is what my initial post said. Anything more that you've read into that came from you, not from me.

So, to bring this back to the deeming regs, here's Rep. Hunter's proposed legislation:
https://www.regulatorwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/CSREVA115-APR-21-2017-vr..pdf

Thoughts? Is this something we should get behind, should we appeal to him for changes? What are people's thoughts on AEMSA if they're going to be the new standard?

AEMSA has a nic limit and refuses to accept nets and wta, correct?

That leaves people out on the street whom I could care less about.

BUT!

Since I'd want them to fight for me, these limitations are unacceptable IMO.

Tapatyped

 

[Lessifer]

All those things you mentioned as undiscussable, do directly affect the vaping industry.. so I think they rightly could be discussed - however no one forces anyone to join in, nor prevents others from having their own (and valued) opinion, even if it's in disagreement.

That said, I find that proposal to be slightly overreaching, and rather broad and open ended.

Just like their prohibition upon advertising to attract minors.. well that's too broadly worded. There are some in the anti vaping community who believe the e liquid flavors I most enjoy and vape daily, are targeted to children (even though it's adults enjoying them) therefore they shouldn't be available to me for purchase..

Let's face it, I'm 48 years old and have four grandchildren and I like sweet flavors, they are pleasant. My son is 33 and he likes sour apple and Apple pie and other weird, sweet and interesting flavors..

So this leaves that prohibition rather open ended, because who is going to be deciding what is targeting kids and what is targeting a 33 year old who likes candy flavors, or a 48 year old who likes sweets? The who, will decide what the target audience is, and then what? Is someone going to be found having broken a law because they tried to make and sell a product for/to me? I think they should define that to be more narrow than what someone's opinion might be at the time.

And jail time for unapproved e liquid? Really? How will this affect diy? How will it affect my sending my son diy? They planning on putting us in jail?

When taken a whole though, it's not too bad I suppose, God knows they love their ridiculous laws - rather than letting evolution take its course - so this is at least better.

As far as the bill, I think it would be fun to vote on which substance and delivery system is the most harmful.. I vote shisha tobacco.. in a 30 minute session with a pipe there it's like smoking an entire pack of cigarettes.. though wow, brings back some good memories doesn't it? lol.. nothing like shisha and some Turkish coffee.. I haven't made turkish coffee since I stopped drinking coffee..

Anyhow, I really don't know anything about AEMSA.. seems like a bunch of left wingers.. lol.. now that was a joke.

Since we are talking about originality and opinions, why do you ask others for theirs but seem to possess none of your own? You should lead perhaps, if you wish to discuss, with your own opinions.

I agree with you on the advertising to minors, and some will no doubt try to interpret that into a flavor ban. Personally I don't even agree with an age restriction, but that tends to not be a popular opinion.

As for AEMSA, I thought they had a restriction against diacetyl but I don't see it in their standards now. I know they don't allow WTA, and they have a max of 36mg for flavored liquid, no max for DIY. That would be the starting point and then I guess the HHS Secretary would finalize standards from there.

I don't like what appears to be a restriction against mechs, though it's a given that battery safety is going to come up.

If we were starting fresh I'd be all for arguing all of these points. We're not starting fresh though, the deeming regs are coming up fast, so, are we getting enough out of this bill, or do we try to fight for more? I haven't decided for myself yet, other than this is a whole lot better than being under the TCA.

 

[Lessifer]

AEMSA has a nic limit and refuses to accept nets and wta, correct?

That leaves people out on the street whom I could care less about.

BUT!

Since I'd want them to fight for me, these limitations are unacceptable IMO.

Tapatyped

36mg and no WTA, I didn't see anything about NET but I might have missed it.

Are there any commercially made, ready to vape liquids above 36mg other than what comes in a pod/carto/disposable? I could see that one being dropped.

Truthfully, I don't believe the AEMSA standards, as far as what they don't allow in liquids, are based on any real science either.

I'm just wondering if it's time to start compromising, I've been told I'm too unwilling in that regard.

 

[beckdg]

36mg and no WTA, I didn't see anything about NET but I might have missed it.

Are there any commercially made, ready to vape liquids above 36mg other than what comes in a pod/carto/disposable? I could see that one being dropped.

Truthfully, I don't believe the AEMSA standards, as far as what they don't allow in liquids, are based on any real science either.

I'm just wondering if it's time to start compromising, I've been told I'm too unwilling in that regard.

Thing is we're losing because we're either accepting every compromise or just rolling over.

And our agencies haven't a clue how to rally the troops or win a fight.

Not the first clue.

The CTA's are merely PSA's that get glossed over by the majority.

And asking Joe public to tell his story results in opinions so fragmented and over 90% of the stories either useless or detrimental.

To win a fight, you have to have a unified voice with a clear statement, backed by the science, the revenue and tax dollar loss, the decimation of an industry, etc.

One that COMPLETELY SHUTS DOWN ANY opposition!!!!!

USARK won against the big snake, reptile and non indigenous bans by issuing statements we could sign, add our comments and click a link that forwarded them directly to our legislators for us.

They did a lot of fighting and ground work to make it that simple.

We were on the verge of losing constantly for years.

A similar plight was won similarly against the pet fish ban.

I dunno, but if diy is unlimited, that doesn't affect me at all.

But 36mg is a ridiculous limit.

Tapatyped

 

[Opinionated]

I agree with you on the advertising to minors, and some will no doubt try to interpret that into a flavor ban. Personally I don't even agree with an age restriction, but that tends to not be a popular opinion.

As for AEMSA, I thought they had a restriction against diacetyl but I don't see it in their standards now. I know they don't allow WTA, and they have a max of 36mg for flavored liquid, no max for DIY. That would be the starting point and then I guess the HHS Secretary would finalize standards from there.

I don't like what appears to be a restriction against mechs, though it's a given that battery safety is going to come up.

If we were starting fresh I'd be all for arguing all of these points. We're not starting fresh though, the deeming regs are coming up fast, so, are we getting enough out of this bill, or do we try to fight for more? I haven't decided for myself yet, other than this is a whole lot better than being under the TCA.

Well, this (and every other fight) is between the people who desire their own freedom, and the people who desire our slavery.

We have to compromise some, find some areas where we can meet in the middle, personally, if it was my child or grandchild, I wouldn't allow them to vape if I felt they were too young. I didn't let my kids smoke either, although my son picked up the habit (he says around the age of 16.. but I didn't know about it til he was 20)

With kids, it's like anything else.. where there is a will there is a way, and saying no seems to be more of a challenge than a followed directive, so why bother with the no? But since I wouldn't let my kids, then I figure age is a place of compromise with those who believe they can prevent all harm to anyone through a communist state.

Batteries were mentioned in the bill, and I didn't like that at all because the first thing those idiots will do is ban the sale of 18650 devices saying it's not approved or some such thing.. personally, I like being able to buy the best and correct 18650 on the market for my particular device, and know exactly what the battery is, how good it is and what it's parameters are.. I find my self feeling more secure with an 18650 battery from liion wholesale, than one that is built into a mod which I have no earthly idea of its manufacturer or origin, most especially when it's coming from cheap Chinese made devices.

So.. I very much worry about what will happen to what is available to us when they start regulating batteries, and approving this battery and not approving that one..

The above, is precisely why they are wanting to ban mechs, because the second they start messing with our batteries is the second mechs will hit a very high popularity - so an outright ban on them in their opinion, will nip that in the bud before it gets started..

In my opinion all this is similar to the prohibition on alcohol.. we are going to do what we are going to do regardless of what the government demands.. and I think in the end we will find our compromise, but honestly I don't see much compromise with the vaping community in this bill.. it's just more laws piled on more laws, written in such a way that people read the beginning, feel like it's being supportive of vaping and stop reading... before getting into all the doors this bill opens for the complete and total destruction of our way of vaping..

And this is the thing.. our way of vaping is what has gotten us all off the smokes, and all these regulations are designed to end our way of vaping, unless we can somehow get the language narrowed way down.. way way down.

All the open ended language ever does, is provide inroads for the communists.

 

[beckdg]

This story was top billed on every news network nationwide while they were trying to push the big snake ban...



As well as a new story twice a week played every airing until the next big story.

The general public was our antz.

USFWS and farmers that feed us were our FDA, BT and BP.

Congress = Congress

There was less of us and we were less educated and sophisticated.

We still won.

Tapatyped

 

[Eskie]

Err, won what? The right to keep big Pythons?

 

[beckdg]

Err, won what? The right to keep big Pythons?

No.

The privilege to keep them, boas and anacondas.

You're missing the point, I think.

The point was that by nature and without the care to even understand, the vast majority doesn't have to be persuaded to be completely against the idea.

And will stand unwavering in that idea.

And there were actual deaths of children cited and plastered everywhere.

Gruesome deaths, the worst kind, asphyxiation and suffocation.

The stakes were lower and the odds were MUCH, MUCH worse.

Just like my outlook on vaping, I won't judge what you call a pet. I'd appreciate the same.

Just like vaping, the problem was careless idiots and were a very slim minority.

And just like vaping, there were and still are restrictions I feel strongly that should have been put in place.

For example, I think to sell a mech to someone, the purchaser should have to produce a certificate of completion of a course that teaches mech and battery care and safety where you need to pass a test to be certified.

And many species should be limited to regions where they won't thrive and easily reproduce in the wild.

But common sense never reaches legislature.

Tapatyped

 

[Opinionated]

No.

The privilege to keep them, boas and anacondas.

You're missing the point, I think.

The point was that by nature and without the care to even understand, the vast majority doesn't have to be persuaded to be completely against the idea.

And will stand unwavering in that idea.

And there were actual deaths of children cited and plastered everywhere.

Gruesome deaths, the worst kind, asphyxiation and suffocation.

The stakes were lower and the odds were MUCH, MUCH worse.

Just like my outlook on vaping, I won't judge what you call a pet. I'd appreciate the same.

Just like vaping, the problem was careless idiots and were a very slim minority.

And just like vaping, there were and still are restrictions I feel strongly that should have been put in place.

For example, I think to sell a mech to someone, the purchaser should have to produce a certificate of completion of a course that teaches mech and battery care and safety where you need to pass a test to be certified.

And many species should be limited to regions where they won't thrive and easily reproduce in the wild.

But common sense never reaches legislature.

Tapatyped

Here is the thing about mechs.. what you said is a good idea, but putting things like that on government I don't agree with.

While something needs to be done about youth who wants to build low on mechs prior to educating themselves properly, I also don't feel the government can solve all ills either.

Just like hunters education, it takes money to have an education and certification process - and when we leave it to government to provide that, we are looking at more tax money from every state which will need to be used to provide that course. Won't be popular in any event.

Even charging some money, say 100 dollars for the course, it's still not going to provide the overhead needed to have such a course overseen by government employees to be certain of compliance, the overhead of the buildings used to teach the courses as well as government officials pay for doing their job. Bureaucracy costs money.. it doesn't come cheap.

The government, and most tax payers in general, will support a ban before they get behind that..

We are 20 trillion dollars in debt because we try and make the government solve every problem, and quite frankly it's impossible as this is not within the scope of what a government should be there for, and well outside this nations financial abilities for them to do so..

At some point, we will have to learn to solve our own problems, without looking to the state to solve every difficulty.

 

[beckdg]

Here is the thing about mechs.. what you said is a good idea, but putting things like that on government I don't agree with.

While something needs to be done about youth who wants to build low on mechs prior to educating themselves properly, I also don't feel the government can solve all ills either.

Just like hunters education, it takes money to have an education and certification process - and when we leave it to government to provide that, we are looking at more tax money from every state which will need to be used to provide that course. Won't be popular in any event.

Even charging some money, say 100 dollars for the course, it's still not going to provide the overhead needed to have such a course overseen by government employees to be certain of compliance, the overhead of the buildings used to teach the courses as well as government officials pay for doing their job. Bureaucracy costs money.. it doesn't come cheap.

The government, and most tax payers in general, will support a ban before they get behind that..

That's a narrow view.

The government doesn't run every restaurant or slaughter house yet they make enough money on fines to pay for the inspectors.

Plus the inspections cost the business owner, not the government.

So, as far as cost having to be out of control, I completely disagree.

I don't think it even has any logic let alone merit.

Legislators know they're in no position to set up shop nearly as fast as they want control.

It would no doubt be outsourced to shops that apply for the job in their region.

All the government would have to do is accept someone's outline of the criteria and classwork and issue permits and tell the shops where to buy the material.

Just like getting any other license, the customer would then pay the fees, attend the course and the shop would issue the credentials.

Though, I completely agree our government is too incompetent to leave well enough alone and find a common sense approach that works without over reaching.

And for that, I agree that OUR CURRENT government (and for the foreseeable future) should keep their grubby mitts out of our cookie jar.

But if they could get their hands out of the opposition's pockets, actually protect our best interests and avoid rectal cranial inversion, my proposal is the best I've seen IMHO.

Not that I'm biased or anything. I just happen to know the guy who proposed it... is all.

Tapatyped