Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Believe me the FDA does not have the man power to monitor us little people and enforce their crap. So what if I buy batteries from a company that sells batteries. It's just an extra shipping charge apart from other items I may purchase. Do you really think they are going to monitor the lives of millions of vapers to see if they are complying? Or come to my home to monitor what I have purchased and how I will put it to use? Talk about rights being trampled on.

 

[7sixtwo]

...You are looking at it the wrong way. What the FDA is regulating is what happens to these things
after they are sold. If they wind up in tobacco products by whatever means,either bought directly
for that purpose or indirectly by any means to circumnavigate the regulatory process they are covered
under the FDA's regulatory authority.

Regards
Mike

The FDA cannot regulate "what happens to these things
after they are sold", no matter what insane horse$#^% they put on paper.

They're not going to be "busting" anyone for possession, unless we're talking about "unapproved" e-liquid, toppers, or mods someone's selling after the regs fully kick in.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

While it is without a doubt that the FDA has set their sights on vaping, and while they use some pretty strong and threatening sounding language, it is not the doomsday that many fear.

There is an army of lawyers pouring over the regulations on our behalf, there will be lawsuits brought, and items confiscated. I personally am not going to wait and roll the dice and see what happens. We have been given a 90 day warning, and now it is our fault if we are not prepared! It is time to take control of your own destiny and learn to be as self sufficient as possible!

Many, in fact most, of the items we use come from other industries. While the FDA uses a lot heavy language, and is trying to push an "Intended Use" clause through, the fact remains that realistically they wont be able to stop most of the hardware. It will all come down to "what the item is marketed for". Here are some examples:

Ejuice - YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN EJUICE:
Ejuice is comprised of PG, VG, Nicotine, and Flavorings

• PG and VG are readily available to the cosmetics market, food industry, and many others. As long as the product isnt labeled as being "intended" for vaping they wont be able to stop its availability.
• Flavorings. Most of the flavors used in ejuice are actually artificial food flavors anyway, and they will still be sold. Now if your favorite flavor is some "vape" labeled line (like VZ) then you might want to stock up. Brands like Capella and LorAnn have long been established as food flavorings, and many people use it in ejuice. Just make sure to get the water-soluble flavors and not the oil based. Search the DIY forums, there are many other brands. As long as it is used for the food industry the FDA wont be able to stop it.
• Nicotine. This is where the FDA will be able to be the most restrictive. However, please remember that many nicotine suppliers are already FDA approved. Companies like Wizard Labs, eLiq, RTS, and many more already sell USP certified and FDA approved nic. Now, how the FDA might restrict them in the future remains to be seen, but these companies already have an inroad to the licensing process.

Mods:
I am sure the manufacturers will get creative here. For example, a dimmable flashlight is essentially the equivalent of a VV mod. If you are handy, learn to make your own mod. A simple Mod is not difficult to make. Look at youtube and on the DIY forums here, It doesnt have to look like a diamond to work and keep the nico-demon off your back!

Attys:
This is the one item where I dont see any other reasonable intended use other than vaping. Perhaps aromatherapy, I dont know. I am sure the vendors will push the envelope here though. My recommendation is to stock up on a few high quality SS rebuildable atomizers NOW while they can still be had. Learn how to build your own coils and wicks, again it honestly is not hard at all, I could teach my grandmother to do it. A good quality SS atty will last damn near forever with little more than a new wick/coil now and then, and some new o-rings (available everywhere) twice a year.

Wicks:
Koh Gen Do Organic Cotton pads, Rayon, etc will all be available at the local cosmetics store. "Vapin Bacon" might get regulated, but facial pads certainly will not.

Coils:
Kanthal, NI200, TI, etc are all just types of "resistance wire". Applications for resistance wire include heated hoses, heated seats, freeze protection, leak detection, composite curing and many more. You will be able to buy resistance wire all day long, but the FDA might successfully regulate pre-wound Clapton Coils. Again, learn to wrap your own coils!

Batteries:
The FDA specifically cites batteries as being part of an "ENDS" (electronic nicotine delivery system) and therefor subject to regulation. This is the same 18650 used in a ton of flashlights, RC toys, Robotics, and even your Craftsman Drill. The only way they can regulate an 18650 is if it is "marketed" for vape use. There is no way they could regulate Sony VC5s or Samsung 18650s, but they could regulate "VapePower" batteries.

Bottom line is we have been given a 90 day warning. After that 90 days is up who knows what will happpen, but things will definetly change, and not for the better.

Prepare your strategy NOW!

Of course prepare now. If you have the funds then by all means do so.
I may take you up on that offer to teach a grandma to build her own.

 

[Lemwise]

Another route to take, is to take the FDA to court to seek a judgement that forces them to enforce the regs on every product that can be used for vaping. Copper tube, screws, o-rings and thread cutters found at the hardware store, enforce the regs! Cotton sold at convenience stores, enforce the regs! Food flavourings sold by online baking shops, enforce the regs! Laptops with 18650 battery packs, enforce the regs! Completely bury them in it lol.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

I'm in a fairly rural area, and the vape shops around me are either in a town ~1 hour away, or serve dual-purpose as a vape and head shop.

I know what you're thinking, but they're actually not that bad. I travel for work and have visited vape shops all over the world and in at least 30 states. The head/hookah/vape shops CAN be good- it all depends on who is running them.

My preferred one, at home, is in a crappy strip mall 1/2 hr away, and run by a 20-something Iraqi former USMC 'terp refugee with a stoner/surfer accent.

He's ....ing awesome.


Anyway, I digress. One side of the intelligently-stocked shop has vape gear. The other side has glass tobacco pipes.

He called me today to tell me he got his first batch of Wismec Theorem attys in, and had the one he held for me waiting. The Theorem and the Haze drip-tank were some of the advancements I mentioned in my earlier post: while I was "away" the industry invented the IDEAL attys for me, a flavor-chasing, single-coil building Paradigm Magma devotee.

But, again, I digress. It's siete de mayo, and I still gotto mas tequila- so, shoot me!

Anyway, when I went to get my new RDA (the Theorem is PERFECT, BTW) bro ham, the former combat 'terp, was setting up a rack for the line of essential oils he was going to start carrying.

Shooting the shiz while I looked around, we also talked about using my lathe to build a 510 attachment on which we could build kanthal elements to use as a flame-free lighter for the tobacco pipes on the other side of his shop.

We (here) are going to be alright.

The ones we need to worry about, and put our constituency-horsepower to bear for, are the folks that haven't got their toes in the water yet. The vendors will be able to carry all the same things they do now, they just won't be able to educate their customers about it.

We all started on cig-alikes, and stick batteries with crap C5 tanks, but we also had shops to go to, to talk to experienced hobbyist/shop-owners and enthusiast/customers, find out what the next step was, experiment with different parts and pieces to dial our rig in closer to our personal smoking experience, and make the whole thing that much more of an effective quitting aid.

The next "generation" is not going to have that. I may be able to go into my local shop and talk to my refugee-patriot friend about what is new in variable-wattage aroma dispenser technology, but the new folks are going to be there blind, because he's not going to be able to actually talk about the real end-use and prac app.

The ones that I really feel for are the 60-somethings I see come in and buy their first stick battery and C5 tank, while I'm there buying kanthal and build tools. I know, when I see them leave, that they haven't left with their actual solution, but I figure they've at least cracked the door, at a price point they can justify, and will be back for the next, closer step to quitting cigarettes.

They're going to have a hell of time, with no one to help them, sorting out exactly why they need a higher power "flashlight" and a properly chambered "aroma diffuser" to help them finally quit smoking and buy back a few more years with their grandchildren.

 

[7sixtwo]

Another route to take, is to take the FDA to court to seek a judgement that forces them to enforce the regs on every product that can be used for vaping. Copper tube, screws, o-rings and thread cutters found at the hardware store, enforce the regs! Cotton sold at convenience stores, enforce the regs! Food flavourings sold by online baking shops, enforce the regs! Laptops with 18650 battery packs, enforce the regs! Completely bury them in it lol.

Actually, the best result of that strategy would be to induce the ire, (and opposition), of all the other industries that routinely use these products. It would be a great way to expose the unreasonable, overreaching nature of the entire document.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

RE: atties

There are already atties that vaporize other stuff that can be used or modified for our use. That is exactly what an RM2 is, a modded Triangle atty....although the Triangle is out of production.

 

[VictorC]

This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England...

Evermore thanks (FDA), the exchequer of the poor

 

[7sixtwo]

I'm in a fairly rural area, and the vape shops around me are either in a town ~1 hour away, or serve dual-purpose as a vape and head shop.

I know what you're thinking, but they're actually not that bad. I travel for work and have visited vape shops all over the world and in at least 30 states. The head/hookah/vape shops CAN be good- it all depends on who is running them.

My preferred one, at home, is in a crappy strip mall 1/2 hr away, and run by a 20-something Iraqi former USMC 'terp refugee with a stoner/surfer accent.

He's ....ing awesome.


Anyway, I digress. One side of the intelligently-stocked shop has vape gear. The other side has glass tobacco pipes.

He called me today to tell me he got his first batch of Wismec Theorem attys in, and had the one he held for me waiting. The Theorem and the Haze drip-tank were some of the advancements I mentioned in my earlier post: while I was "away" the industry invented the IDEAL attys for me, a flavor-chasing, single-coil building Paradigm Magma devotee.

But, again, I digress. It's siete de mayo, and I still gotto mas tequila- so, shoot me!

Anyway, when I went to get my new RDA (the Theorem is PERFECT, BTW) bro ham, the former combat 'terp, was setting up a rack for the line of essential oils he was going to start carrying.

Shooting the shiz while I looked around, we also talked about using my lathe to build a 510 attachment on which we could build kanthal elements to use as a flame-free lighter for the tobacco pipes on the other side of his shop.

We (here) are going to be alright.

The ones we need to worry about, and put our constituency-horsepower to bear for, are the folks that haven't got their toes in the water yet. The vendors will be able to carry all the same things they do now, they just won't be able to educate their customers about it.

We all started on cig-alikes, and stick batteries with crap C5 tanks, but we also had shops to go to, to talk to experienced hobbyist/shop-owners and enthusiast/customers, find out what the next step was, experiment with different parts and pieces to dial our rig in closer to our personal smoking experience, and make the whole thing that much more of an effective quitting aid.

The next "generation" is not going to have that. I may be able to go into my local shop and talk to my refugee-patriot friend about what is new in variable-wattage aroma dispenser technology, but the new folks are going to be there blind, because he's not going to be able to actually talk about the real end-use and prac app.

The ones that I really feel for are the 60-somethings I see come in and buy their first stick battery and C5 tank, while I'm there buying kanthal and build tools. I know, when I see them leave, that they haven't left with their actual solution, but I figure they've at least cracked the door, at a price point they can justify, and will be back for the next, closer step to quitting cigarettes.

They're going to have a hell of time, with no one to help them, sorting out exactly why they need a higher power "flashlight" and a properly chambered "aroma diffuser" to help them finally quit smoking and buy back a few more years with their grandchildren.

Yes, but that will push us into the same kind of quasi-legitimate "grey market" as purveyors of "other stuff" dwell in. We do not want to be there. We want to be a completely above board, legitimate, growing industry, for the sake of current smokers who want to stop killing themselves.

 

[skoony]

If you buy OEM, (LG, Sony, Samsung), batteries by themselves, the FDA has no basis to interfere with that in any way.

If we are talking about the batteries the manufacturers have specifically stated are not meant
to sold desperately to end users but only to OEM's The FDA has every reason to interfere if
they choose ( I am not saying they will) to do so.

It will all come down to "what the item is marketed for". Here are some examples:

The FDA has expanded its intended use doctrine to include actual use if the FDA deems
that the seller should have reasonably known that the sales were due to the use
of said items for things under its regulatory control.

The FDA cannot regulate "what happens to these things
after they are sold", no matter what insane horse$#^% they put on paper.

I have mentioned in other threads they very well can and the processes to do so are
already in use in other areas. I will admit that the FDA will probably not go down that
road concerning DIY unless and or until DIY becomes a factor in the FDA's ability to
effectively regulate and control the market. There is also the issues concerning existing
hardware already in private hands. However IMHO if the FDA deems it necessary to
do so anything that makes up the juice or hardware can effectively and easily be
controlled through processes already online unless you make everything you need
from scratch. I do mean everything.

Regards
Mike

 

[DaveP]

Remember, their goal is to shut down the small businesses. They will be able to enforce it on that level alone.

Internet....depending on the companies you are getting the product from....They will have to comply or get shut down too. Small business Modders? They won't be able to comply. If you know how to build your own...you can probably get away with it.

Most vapers are not going to be able to make their own mods.

The FDA is killing vaping and they have the nerve to say that what they are doing will likely increase innovation. Bull !

Innovation may be needed to get around the new rules. I can't help but remember the cartoon, Cowboy after OSHA way back when. Ecig after FDA may not even resemble what we vape today.

 

[Katya]

The ones that I really feel for are the 60-somethings I see come in and buy their first stick battery and C5 tank, while I'm there buying kanthal and build tools. I know, when I see them leave, that they haven't left with their actual solution, but I figure they've at least cracked the door, at a price point they can justify, and will be back for the next, closer step to quitting cigarettes.

And how do you feel about 20-, 30-, 40-, 50-, 70- and 80-somethings in the same situation?

Are they going to fare any better?

 

[crxess]

I'd like to wish Mitch Zeller a Happy Mother's Day but I think forum censors would change how I would (properly) word that.

That's Marshal Zeller, now.

Sheriff, appointed to rope in the Wild West Industry and settle Vaping into the Dust once and for all. No good

 

[BreSha6869]

They absolutely do intend to regulate the batteries. Even if they have other uses. My best guess would be that any shop or online seller will simply remove things like the batteries, wires, silica, etc. from their offerings. Or maybe they could set up a separate company to sell only those things, but I imagine that if FDA saw that an online company selling only generic things like the batteries, wire, etc is in anyway associated (like owners of record) to a company that also sells e-liquid or mods or tanks, then it will say the intended use of the products in the generic item company is for the tobacco products in the first company, and will seize their goods for selling unapproved products.

On page 163-164:

This final deeming rule deems all tobacco products as they are defined in section 201(rr) of the FD&C Act, except accessories of newly deemed products, but including components and parts as defined in this rule. The wires, screws, and silica meet the definition of component or part, as they are an assembly of materials intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the human consumption of a tobacco product and are not accessories of a tobacco product. FDA also remains concerned about reports of exploding batteries. Batteries that are co-packaged with other components or parts of an ENDS (e.g., cartridges and tanks) or otherwise intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the consumption of ENDS are components or parts and subject to FDA's tobacco product authorities. However, as noted elsewhere in this document, for ENDS hardware or delivery system components or parts, such as batteries, FDA expects that it may be difficult for manufacturers to obtain premarket authorization for such products, given the great extent of possible variations in combinations of hardware components, if all considered and sold separately. Thus, with respect to such apparatus, FDA expects that manufacturers will be most successful where authorization is sought for entire delivery systems, rather than individual components. Elsewhere in this issue of the Federal Register, FDA also has made available draft guidance, which when final will represent some appropriate means of addressing the premarket authorization requirements for newly deemed ENDS products and will include FDA's current thinking regarding compliance with existing voluntary standards for ENDS batteries.
​

And on page 168:

(Comment 75) Some comments stated that items also used for purposes other than for tobacco use (i.e., a lighter or matches that can be used to light candles) should be classified as accessories and, therefore, not subject to FDA's chapter IX authorities. For example, batteries used in advanced personal vaporizers can be found in laptop battery packs or cordless drill packs. These comments also stated that items such as lighters and batteries may (or may not) be used in consumption of a tobacco product or are regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Act (as are child-resistant lighters) and, therefore, should not be subject to FDA's tobacco product authorities.

(Response) FDA agrees that it is not necessary to regulate batteries that are not intended or reasonably expected to be used with a tobacco product under its tobacco product authorities. However, it is important that batteries that are co-packaged with other parts of an ENDS (e.g., cartridges and tanks) or otherwise intended or reasonably expected to be used with ENDS are components subject to FDA's tobacco product authorities. FDA remains concerned about reports of exploding e-cigarette batteries and finds that regulating them can help address these problems.​

Not sure if many caught this doozy in your post, but any mod with a removeable battery will have a very tough time obtaining approval as it seems the regs are written for cigalikes and iSticks and other mods with integrated batteries....

...for ENDS hardware or delivery system components or parts, such as batteries, FDA expects that it may be difficult for manufacturers to obtain premarket authorization for such products, given the great extent of possible variations in combinations of hardware components, if all considered and sold separately. Thus, with respect to such apparatus, FDA expects that manufacturers will be most successful where authorization is sought for entire delivery systems, rather than individual components.

This is really crazy....

 

[Robino1]

This is really crazy....

Yes it is

 

[Bronze]

Innovation may be needed to get around the new rules. I can't help but remember the cartoon, Cowboy after OSHA way back when. Ecig after FDA may not even resemble what we vape today.

Reminds me of school buses these days. They have so many safety features and safety rules on these things that they have become a road hazard. You look at the mile long string of cars piled up behind them during rush hour because they can only go half the speed limit and the ...... off drivers bobbing in and out of traffic to try and pass. Then they stop to let out the little kiddies every quarter mile and you can hear the cussing and screaming from everyone stopped dead in their tracks waiting. By the time you get home all you want to do is kick the dog and beat your spouse.

 

[7sixtwo]

Reminds me of school buses these days. They have so many safety features and safety rules on these things that they have become a road hazard. You look at the mile long string of cars piled up behind them during rush hour because they can only go half the speed limit and the ...... off drivers bobbing in and out of traffic to try and pass. Then they stop to let out the little kiddies every quarter mile and you can hear the cussing and screaming from everyone stopped dead in their tracks waiting. By the time you get home all you want to do is kick the dog and beat your spouse.

I have much less of a problem with school buses than I do city buses and the utterly useless street cars constantly blocking traffic in the downtown area where I live.

 

[DaveP]

IMHO these batteries most definitely will be included. They are used in the hardware and the hardware
and all the components have been officially deemed tobacco products.

Regards
Mike

I don't see lithium batteries being banned. We borrowed them from flashlights, yard equipment, and a host of other high powered rechargeable devices. We are only a small segment of 18650 battery purchases.

If you are talking about eGo type tube mods that people refer to as batteries, then Yes they will be included.

 

[WillyZee]

remember the dude selling audio speakers out of the back of his station wagon?

he could be the future in eLiquid distribution

 

[JustWondering1]

I saw an episode of The Five, a politically oriented talk show that airs on the Fox News Network, at 5 p.m. (EST) on week days, that aired last night. One of the co-hosts, Greg Gutfeld, is a vaper, and the story they did on the Deeming Regs was very good for our cause! I hope CASAA, or another pro-vaping organization will reach out to Greg and ask him to do other stories. He has his own show, The Greg Gutfeld Show, that airs on Saturday nights, at 8 p.m. EST and again at midnight. If anyone is speaking out against the Deeming regs on twitter, you might want to tweet Greg. His twitter address is @greggutfeld.com. I bet he would retweet your comments to his large audience. I plan to record his show tonight. He was very angry about the Deeming Regs, and I have a hunch he may speak about them on his show tonight.