Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[untar]

Do you think Chinese vendors are going to stop shipping '"tobacco products", particularly ones that don't contain a trace of tobacco or nicotine? I have more than a decade of experience in another industry that shows it's effectively impossible to stop the flow of outright illegal Chinese goods.

Well, you tell me. Afaik the US customs have already demonstrated how effective they would be at stopping vapor products and that was almost 10 years ago, before AI scanning technology. Expect them to be much more effective now, especially if you take general focus on items from China into account.
Most of the "usual" illegal goods come via ship/cargo container, not through international mail hubs (I guess for that reason).

But all that is a whole different discussion from banning online sales from US based stores. The Chinese won't care, US online stores however will care very much and that's the whole point of it. Killing the modern day supply and kicking vaping back to an 80s business model, greatly reducing appeal and availability.

If the FDA kills off on-line sales from US vendors, it will make things more inconvenient and expensive for for everyone, but I don't think it will make much of a dent in the"problem" of under-age vaping.

The majority of them doesn't get their stuff online anyways so I agree, that wouldn't have a tangible effect.
But with states having very different taxes on cigarettes I can see what the motivation for an online tobacco sales ban would be...
Vaping is officially a tobacco product so if there's an onine ban for tobacco there would be enough forces that want to extend that on vape gear.

 

[BillW50]

But all that is a whole different discussion from banning online sales from US based stores. The Chinese won't care

Oh they care a lot. As if it is banned in the states, their orders would increase by 10 fold easy.

Vaping is officially a tobacco product so if there's a ban for tobacco there would be enough forces that want to extend that on vape gear.

How can batteries, mods, tanks, cotton, coils, etc. be regulated as tobacco products? Where is the logic in that?

 

[untar]

How can batteries, mods, tanks, cotton, coils, etc. be regulated as tobacco products? Where is the logic in that?

As a half German I know regulation has nothing to do with logic. If a bureaucrat says a pigeon is a cat then it's a cat

Just look at the TPD2 in Europe: the liquid, ecigarette and every part of it (except the battery) is regulated as a tobacco product. Mods and rebuildable atomizers must have nicotine warnings on them.
I know someone who had "atomizer screws" sent back by customs because they didn't have that nicotine warning
Of course he just bought the same size screws from a metal shop without any problem...

 

[Rossum]

Well, you tell me. Afaik the US customs have already demonstrated how effective they would be at stopping vapor products and that was almost 10 years ago, before AI scanning technology. Expect them to be much more effective now, especially if you take general focus on items from China into account.

Yes, they stopped some shipments 10 years ago. My understanding is these were mostly big wholesale orders to a few obvious wholesale buyers here. The industry was nowhere near as diverse as it is now.

I know someone who had "atomizer screws" sent back by customs

And if there were labeled as "Computer Screws" or just "Screws", there wouldn't have been any problem, right?

 

[untar]

Yes, they stopped some shipments 10 years ago. My understanding is these were mostly big wholesale orders to a few obvious wholesale buyers here. The industry was nowhere near as diverse as it is now.

Yes, but now they have computer scanning support in case they need to sift through mail order imports. So while the market has scaled up and the target would be much bigger they also have the tools to stem that load.
Reading my post again I see I put my point together rather clumsily, you gotta read between the lines

And if there were labeled as "Computer Screws" or just "Screws", there wouldn't have been any problem, right?

Exactly. That's what makes it "special"

 

[Hoggy]

Well, you tell me. Afaik the US customs have already demonstrated how effective they would be at stopping vapor products and that was almost 10 years ago, before AI scanning technology. Expect them to be much more effective now, especially if you take general focus on items from China into account.

Could you elaborate on that, please? I have no idea what you're talking about here.

As someone that has strictly ordered from China ever since after my first step above a cigalike from a gas station, I'm very interested.

 

[untar]

Could you elaborate on that, please?

March 2009:

• FDA adds electronic cigarettes to Import Alert 66-41 and directs the U.S. Customs and Border Protection to reject the entry of electronic cigarettes into the United States on the basis of them being unapproved drug delivery devices. (See pp. 12-13 here.) (At this time FDA had gained authority over tobacco products, but this ruling came not from their nascent Center for Tobacco Products, but from their Center for Drug Evaluation and Research.)

Historical Timeline of Electronic Cigarettes - CASAA

 

[Baditude]

The current FDA regulations are preventing manufacturers from designing a "safer" e-cigarette, and this article explains why:

Why safer vaping devices that don't explode will not be available in the U.S.

"The first vaping products designed to prevent fires and explosions — and safety-certified by UL — are scheduled to hit the market in a few weeks. While these redesigned electronic cigarettes will be available in Canada, they won’t be sold in the United States.

The vaping industry blames the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, which regulates tobacco products, for preventing Americans from buying these safety-enhanced devices.

UL, the global safety company that tests and certifies tens of thousands of consumer products each year, now has a safety standard for electronic cigarettes — and Joyetech, a big player in the e-cigarette market based in southern California, is the first manufacturer with a vaping product that meets this rigorous standard.

But here’s the rub: When the eGo A10, Joyetech’s UL-certified vaping device, hits the market this month it will be sold in Canada, but not the U.S.

Manufacturers say it makes no sense to begin the costly and time-consuming application process until the rules for this process are finalized, and no one knows when that will be.

Technology innovates in cycles of months, not years, so the products being sold today were first designed almost three years ago,” VTA’s Abboud told NBC News. “Manufacturers have developed and are selling products in other parts of the world that have safety designs and safety protections in them, but we can't make any changes to those products here in the U.S. without going through the FDA’s multimillion-dollar multi-year PMTA process.”


UL (Underwriters Laboratories) TRIES TO ELIMINATE THE MAJOR RISK FACTORS

"The new voluntary safety standard for vaping products, known as UL 8139, covers the entire electrical system: battery, charger and built-in battery management systems.

A device with a removable battery cannot meet the UL 8139 standard. This eliminates the exploding battery in the pocket scenario. The device must also be designed in a way that makes it difficult for the user to change the heating coil or other major component.

UL requires an onboard battery management system, typically a chip, that regulates the power and automatically turns off the device if the battery starts to overheat. Manufacturers whose products pass the UL test must agree to quarterly factory inspections and annual follow-up testing to make sure they stay in compliance.

Michael Sakamoto, UL’s senior business development manager, said smokers who see the UL-listed logo on a vaping device can be assured “the risks are minimized and that they’re going to have a safer product in their hands.”

**************************************
​

From my understanding of the above, it looks like this policy would prohibit sales of mechanical mods, juice delivery attachments that will accept replaceable coils (RBA's and clearomizer replacement coils), and battery devices that use removable Li-on batteries from the e-cigarette market in the US.

In other words, the only e-cigarettes that will be acceptable by UL and the FDA would be regulated battery devices with a battery management system that also use a non-removeable internal LiPo battery and use a "closed system" juice attachment whose wick/coils can not be removed.

Do you agree with my understanding of this? Does this mean that tanks that use a factory made replaceable coil head will be prohibited?

 

[Rossum]

It looks like this policy would eliminate mechanical mods, juice delivery attachments that will accept replaceable coils, and battery devices that use removable Li-on batteries from the e-cigarette market in the US.

In other words, the only e-cigarettes that will be acceptable by UL and the FDA would be regulated battery devices with a battery management system that also uses a non-removeable internal LiPo battery and use a "closed system" juice attachment whose wick/coils can not be removed.

I don't find any of this at all surprising.

Nor do I find such a product at all appealing, so I will continue to accept the the small risk in vaping my mechanical squonkers with 18650s and coils I make myself, thank you.

BTW, the headline of the article bothers me. Just because something is built to a UL standard doesn't mean it can't fail in a catastrophic manner. Thinking that is like believing you can't possibly die in a car that's meets all the DOT/NHSTA specifications.

 

[ScottP]

From my understanding of the above, it looks like this policy would prohibit sales of mechanical mods, juice delivery attachments that will accept replaceable coils (RBA's), and battery devices that use removable Li-on batteries from the e-cigarette market in the US.

In other words, the only e-cigarettes that will be acceptable by UL and the FDA would be regulated battery devices with a battery management system that also use a non-removeable internal LiPo battery and use a "closed system" juice attachment whose wick/coils can not be removed.

Do you agree with my understanding of this?

You are correct that Mech's, mods that use "loose" batteries, RDA's, and Tanks that take user built coils will not pass this UL standard (tanks with drop in coil heads and pods can pass). The part you have wrong (at least for now) is that the UL standard is NOT a requirement for a product to be sold. The UL is not a regulatory agency, they are more like Consumer Reports except that they have a certification system and focus more on safety.

Now it is true that the FDA COULD at some point add a stipulation that hardware must pass the UL standards in order to be sold, but considering this UL standard was created in March of 2017 (officially announced March 20, 2017) and the FDA has completely ignored it's existence to this point and has kept it's focus more on the liquid and flavors, I am not sure we have to worry too much about that. In fact as the article points out, at this point, NOTHING that passes the UL standard will be able to be sold. Only the older stuff that predates this specification are allowed to be sold.

What I find funny though, is that the Smok Stick 8 could technically meet the requirements for this standard (built in battery, regulating chip, drop in coils, etc.), yet we have all heard of a few of these that exploded, including the video of the one exploding in a living room while charging.

Some interesting reading.

 

[Baditude]

What I find funny though, is that the Smok Stick 8 could technically meet the requirements for this standard (built in battery, regulating chip, drop in coils, etc.), yet we have all heard of a few of these that exploded, including the video of the one exploding in a living room while charging.

 

[Eskie]

Then there's this

NYPD body camera explodes; nearly 3,000 devices recalled

 

[ScottP]

Yeah that's the one. That device (while not specifically certified) does check the boxes for that UL specification. I still won't be buying one.

Thinking more on my previous post, I am not even sure it would technically be legal for a Federal regulatory agency to require a certification from a non-governmental agency in order to be sold. The reason being that it would essentially give a non government agency the ability to regulate what can and can't be sold which I am pretty sure would be completely unconstitutional. So the FDA would have to adopt the standards themselves and be the ones inspecting and certifying the products. They could do that, but they have not announced any plans to do so yet.

 

[Baditude]

Yeah that's the one. That device (while not specifically certified) does check the boxes for that UL specification. I still won't be buying one.

What I don't agree with is limiting the mods to be only internal LiPo batteries. Lipo's happen to be the least safe battery chemistry, being the chemistry with the lowest heat tolerance and most likely to flame or explode.



I personally feel much safer using the removeable "safer chemistry" Lion batteries which can be charged and monitored in a dedicated box battery charger. Safer chemistry with a higher heat tolerance and much less likely to flame or explode. Just educate the public not to carry them in pockets or purses with coins or keys.

 

[ScottP]

What I don't agree with is limiting the mods to be only internal LiPo batteries. Lipo's happen to be the least safe battery chemistry, being the chemistry with the lowest heat tolerance and most likely to flame or explode.

I personally feel much safer using the removeable "safer chemistry" Lion batteries which can be charged and monitored in a dedicated box battery charger. Safer chemistry with a higher heat tolerance and much less likely to flame or explode. Just educate the public not to carry them in pockets or purses with coins or keys.

I don't agree with it either. I feel a LOT safer using my loose 18650's with an Evolv DNA regulated board, than I ever would with a Smok Stick.

 

[440BB]

It has seemed obvious that the FDA was going to limit approved vaping products to closed proprietary systems. The only issue is how they go about it and when they put the hammer down. Their statements about batteries, teen use, flavors and limiting distribution to vape B&M's all are steps toward justifying that outcome IMO.

 

[Baditude]

It has seemed obvious that the FDA was going to limit approved vaping products to closed proprietary systems. The only issue is how they go about it and when they put the hammer down. Their statements about batteries, teen use, flavors and limiting distribution to vape B&M's all are steps toward justifying that outcome IMO.

I've been saying that for the last few years since the Deeming Regulations were first released. I don't like it, but it seems to be becoming a reality.

 

[zoiDman]

The current FDA regulations are preventing manufacturers from designing a "safer" e-cigarette, and this article explains why:

Why safer vaping devices that don't explode will not be available in the U.S.

"The first vaping products designed to prevent fires and explosions — and safety-certified by UL — are scheduled to hit the market in a few weeks. While these redesigned electronic cigarettes will be available in Canada, they won’t be sold in the United States.

The vaping industry blames the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, which regulates tobacco products, for preventing Americans from buying these safety-enhanced devices.

UL, the global safety company that tests and certifies tens of thousands of consumer products each year, now has a safety standard for electronic cigarettes — and Joyetech, a big player in the e-cigarette market based in southern California, is the first manufacturer with a vaping product that meets this rigorous standard.

But here’s the rub: When the eGo A10, Joyetech’s UL-certified vaping device, hits the market this month it will be sold in Canada, but not the U.S.

Manufacturers say it makes no sense to begin the costly and time-consuming application process until the rules for this process are finalized, and no one knows when that will be.

Technology innovates in cycles of months, not years, so the products being sold today were first designed almost three years ago,” VTA’s Abboud told NBC News. “Manufacturers have developed and are selling products in other parts of the world that have safety designs and safety protections in them, but we can't make any changes to those products here in the U.S. without going through the FDA’s multimillion-dollar multi-year PMTA process.”


UL (Underwriters Laboratories) TRIES TO ELIMINATE THE MAJOR RISK FACTORS

"The new voluntary safety standard for vaping products, known as UL 8139, covers the entire electrical system: battery, charger and built-in battery management systems.

A device with a removable battery cannot meet the UL 8139 standard. This eliminates the exploding battery in the pocket scenario. The device must also be designed in a way that makes it difficult for the user to change the heating coil or other major component.

UL requires an onboard battery management system, typically a chip, that regulates the power and automatically turns off the device if the battery starts to overheat. Manufacturers whose products pass the UL test must agree to quarterly factory inspections and annual follow-up testing to make sure they stay in compliance.

Michael Sakamoto, UL’s senior business development manager, said smokers who see the UL-listed logo on a vaping device can be assured “the risks are minimized and that they’re going to have a safer product in their hands.”

**************************************
​

From my understanding of the above, it looks like this policy would prohibit sales of mechanical mods, juice delivery attachments that will accept replaceable coils (RBA's and clearomizer replacement coils), and battery devices that use removable Li-on batteries from the e-cigarette market in the US.

In other words, the only e-cigarettes that will be acceptable by UL and the FDA would be regulated battery devices with a battery management system that also use a non-removeable internal LiPo battery and use a "closed system" juice attachment whose wick/coils can not be removed.

Do you agree with my understanding of this? Does this mean that tanks that use a factory made replaceable coil head will be prohibited?

I'm waiting for that 1st BT made PMTA-ed Mod, that comes with User Non-Adjustable TC and a Chip Enabled Atomizer, that works fine for 2 Months, and then Kacks.

I wonder if BT will get an Exemption to Push-Out a New Firmware Revision?

 

[zoiDman]

What I don't agree with is limiting the mods to be only internal LiPo batteries. Lipo's happen to be the least safe battery chemistry, being the chemistry with the lowest heat tolerance and most likely to flame or explode.



I personally feel much safer using the removeable "safer chemistry" Lion batteries which can be charged and monitored in a dedicated box battery charger. Safer chemistry with a higher heat tolerance and much less likely to flame or explode. Just educate the public not to carry them in pockets or purses with coins or keys.

If I build a Mod that has a Known and Unchanging Battery Amp draw, say 6 Amps, and I put a LiPo Battery in it that is rated at say 15 Amp CDR, is Battery Chemistry such a Critical Issue?

 

[ScottP]

If I build a Mod that has a Known and Unchanging Battery Amp draw, say 6 Amps, and I put a LiPo Battery in it that is rated at say 15 Amp CDR, is Battery Chemistry such a Critical Issue?

Definitely NOT scientific, but from what I have seen (and I could be wrong) most of the LiPo disasters involved charging, not using the device. So amp draw isn't the issue. I am not an expert so I don't know why this happens. It could be they were allowed to overcharge, allowed to be drained too low between charging, charged with too much current, or some combination of all of the above. Really, a battery is only as safe as the circuits that protect it. If the circuit is flawed or fails, then all you have left is battery chemistry.