Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Bronze]

Interesting blog from Kai's Virgin Vapor about going out of business after investing "hundreds of thousands."

FDA Decimating the Vaping Industry

"The FDA's recent actions have shown us that the PMTA process was a sham. The FDA never intended to give a fair review to any of us. They are destroying hundreds of small businesses and handing the market to Big Tobacco."

I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer because I feel bad for this company and all those who invested their time, nerves and unimaginable sums of money. But seriously, does any of this surprise anyone?

 

[rosesense]

I think some of the companies thought that with attorney advice and following the requirements, they had a shot. I haven't thought there was much chance since the beginning since they have been trying to do away with vaping since the early days.

 

[Rossum]

So can the FDA say that one is No Bueno, but the other is Fine?

Well, they would be legally distinct products, kinda like Comirnaty and BNT162 are. The former is "Fully Approved" while the latter remains under an Emergency Use Authorization. But don't get me started on the rationale behind that convoluted mess, also from the Federal Death Administration.

 

[Rossum]

Interesting blog from Kai's Virgin Vapor about going out of business after investing "hundreds of thousands."

The FDA's recent actions have shown us that the PMTA process was a sham. The FDA never intended to give a fair review to any of us. They are destroying hundreds of small businesses and handing the market to Big tobacco.

That's exactly what many people here predicted, over seven years ago, when the Deeming was first proposed in the spring of 2014.

 

[rosesense]

I wish that all the juice companies who are forced out of business would release their recipes as a gesture to the FDA. After all, they can't use them and it would help a lot of people to continue to vape. Nice gesture for their loyal customers, also. I don't think they will though as they seem to think that is akin to giving up a baby or something.

 

[440BB]

Reading Virgin Vapor's blog, it appears the FDA issued blanket MDO's without specifying individual products, just to show the courts they are doing something. I agree with the blog, that until they specify which products/liquids the MDO applies to, nothing is specifically banned or permitted yet.

Realistically, this pretty much tells all small liquid companies that it's not going to be worth their time once all but a couple flavors are banned. If the FDA drags their feet on specific products, it will naturally lead to many of these companies giving up before the final specific MDO's are issued.

If the FDA drags their feet long enough, only the few big players will be left. If they then back down on the requirements and never issue those specific MDO's, they can claim they didn't ban anything and BT and maybe Juul will be left with a market to themselves.

 

[zoiDman]

... But seriously, does any of this surprise anyone?

To someone like Myself, No, It Doesn't.

But I think like with a Lot of things, it Wasn't so much What they Did. It was the Way they Did It.

 

[rosesense]

Not that I am super smart or special but I knew how this was going when they put that wording about 'anything deemed to be a tobacco product'.

 

[Bronze]

I wish that all the juice companies who are forced out of business would release their recipes as a gesture to the FDA. After all, they can't use them and it would help a lot of people to continue to vape. Nice gesture for their loyal customers, also. I don't think they will though as they seem to think that is akin to giving up a baby or something.

I think these vendors are holding out hope that somehow, some way something will change and all of this anti-vaping regulation will blow away. And yes, to them it's like giving up their baby. For us less-invested participants, we would agree to release the recipes. I think those who did made up their minds they were going to get out, stay out, and move on with their lives heading in a different direction. One can only hope so much before it's time to move on.

 

[Bronze]

To someone like Myself, No, It Doesn't.

But I think like with a Lot of things, it Wasn't so much What they Did. It was the Way they Did It.

That too.

 

[englishmick]

If you have a small business it must be hard to give up hoping things will work out somehow. Maybe some of them are hanging on to the possibility that the people who got rejected submitted inadequate PMTAs and the ones that haven't been rejected yet are better quality submissions.

It's a mess. In reality given the complexity of the PMTAs and the enormous number that were submitted it would take them years to examine them all thoroughly, and they were locked into an impossible timeline by that legal decision. Guess it's still possible that they rejected the ones that were easy to reject in order to show that they were making progress, and the better quality PMTAs will still be given a real shot. Doesn't seem like the most likely explanation though.

 

[zoiDman]

...

It's a mess. In reality given the complexity of the PMTAs and the enormous number that were submitted it would take them years to examine them all thoroughly, and they were locked into an impossible timeline by that legal decision. Guess it's still possible that they rejected the ones that were easy to reject in order to show that they were making progress, and the better quality PMTAs will still be given a real shot. Doesn't seem like the most likely explanation though.

But Wasn't that one of the Edges of the Double Edged Sword that was used when Mass PMTA's were Submitted?

It Bought Many/Most More Time. But Now the Devil wants what is His.

 

[CMD-Ky]

To someone like Myself, No, It Doesn't.

But I think like with a Lot of things, it Wasn't so much What they Did. It was the Way they Did It.

For me it was the 'what' and the 'way' and the 'why'. They intentionally ran legitimate and helpful businesses out of business; they did it through the raw brute force of intimidation; and the reason why they did it is nothing more than an old time chamber pot filled to overflowing.

 

[YoursTruli]

As for businesses that are forced out of business releasing their recipes... I for one hope they don't and go on the make them available as flavor blends as some have already done, after all they put their life works in to these flavors and given their losses even as a side the income it's their due. If only bubble headed customers would STOP mentioning former company names and they use them for vaping in reviews that would be even better for these sellers to have a shot at some much needed income.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy, as if the FDA or big government needs any help.

 

[Bronze]

As for businesses that are forced out of business releasing their recipes... I for one hope they don't and go on the make them available as flavor blends as some have already done, after all they put their life works in to these flavors and given their losses even as a side the income it's their due. If only bubble headed customers would STOP mentioning former company names and they use them for vaping in reviews that would be even better for these sellers to have a shot at some much needed income.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy, as if the FDA or big government needs any help.

They can tiptoe around the regulations and it may or may not be technically legal. But in the end if Sam wants you gone you will be gone. People don't want to put their money or their lives on that flimsy chance and truthfully I wouldn't blame them

 

[YoursTruli]

They can tiptoe around the regulations and it may or may not be technically legal. But in the end if Sam wants you gone you will be gone. People don't want to put their money or their lives on that flimsy chance and truthfully I wouldn't blame them

...thinking flavors was the one thing everyone pretty much agreed on that wouldn't go away considering they are mainly used for other purposes and were around long before vaping came into being and gave them an additional use. Several formers have already made this move, more and more started offering their flavors as concentrates, granted nothing like their former businesses but income none the less.

 

[Bronze]

...thinking flavors was the one thing everyone pretty much agreed on that wouldn't go away considering they are mainly used for other purposes and were around long before vaping came into being and gave them an additional use. Several formers have already made this move, more and more started offering their flavors as concentrates, granted nothing like their former businesses but income none the less.

Yeah. I know of places who are doing that. I speak for only me but I wouldn't want the hassle. I'd find another living rather than wondering when Elliot Ness shows up to my place.

 

[BillW50]

Well englishmick, local laws could be different on the crime. But Federally, not complying with FDA regs is just a civil violation. And how it has been working, the FDA will send you like 9 letters to stop. And if you don't, they will send out like another 9 letters threatening you with fines. And if you still won't, then they will come after you. So you will get plenty of warning before anything will happen.

 

[rosesense]

I am all for them doing one shots or whatever. I was talking about the shops that have/are closing. No point in hanging on to recipes if you are closing up altogether.

 

[DaveOno]

First off, where is the harm? There hasn't been one death or injury with juices bought from legitimate vendors and properly used equipment. What the hell is the point of FDA regulation? What the hell is the point of proving "no harm" when there hasn't been any harm?

All this chit about nicotine, which, last I checked is not carcinogenic.

If you are afraid of youth smoking, it's simple.

Ban the sale of cigarettes.

If you don't like the kids vaping, then enforce the same laws that keep kids from beer.

And to find blame, lets not leave the parents out.

In solidarity, if they would make combustible cigs banned, I would stop vaping. The lives saved would be worth it.

In the time it took you to read my post, another American life was lost to smoking or 2nd hand.

Or maybe 2 lives. I don't know how fast y'all read, so every 54 seconds.

(and I'm guessing the choir is tired of my preachin...)