Drop the Entitled Attitude

[Faylool]

I used to feel exactly this way and was surprised at some of the stuff. Dental office, someone in authority coming out from the back to saying you can't do that in here very firmly. People I know who get offended like its smoke ( old people) and I've never even considered it to be ok in a restaurant or grocery store. It's not so much about what should be ok but about making people uncomfortable, including myself if I'm honest so basically in public places I don't do it because I want a to have a pleasant day and usually that happens when I can make someone's day a little better or be left alone and not have someone be in my space about their weird world. To some people vaping is weird. Period.

I dont think people who vape openly in public have an an entitled attitude at all. What they do have is an enlightened one. Hiding vaping and being relegated to some dark, nasty smelly corner like a smoker is the surest way to get treated like one.

Regardless of the scientific evidence that the op calls for in this thread, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that vaping is a better alternative than smoking. If you can accept that (and I think most reasonable people without another agenda can) then you can see why there shouldnt be any association between the two.

I'll continue to vape openly and proudly wherever I damn well please since Im not doing anything wrong. The more people that see us vaping and that take the time to learn about it from a source other than the FDA the better off we all are.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I dont recall ever mentioning The Man or tinfoil hats. It is what it is and I would daresay that many older adults would agree with that assessment. If you dont stand for something you'll fall for anything and thats what terms like that encourage. I think its more by accident than by design, it wouldnt be the first time that something meant as a positive has been twisted from its original meaning

I could point to words like villain, funky, sick, etc etc ad nauseum.

I have a letter signed by Ken Cucinelli, Commonwealth Attorney of the state of Virginia that says that vaping is not smoking and shouldnt be regulated as such. Ive found it very handy in educating restaurant owners but I dont push the issue either. If they decide to exercise their rights as private business owners and not allow vaping even after seeing that letter then I exercise my right to not support them either.

Thats where the statement "Your rights end where mine begin" comes into play.

The question was : And that a private business has no right to limit the use of a PV in their space .. ?? Movie theaters, restaurants, concert venues, Opera houses, malls, shops, airplanes .. ??

Just to be clear : My stance is they have the right ..

 

[zapped]

I started to respond to thejeffs previous post several times and found myself at a loss for words every time. Thats pretty unusual for me and I think stems from the fact the hes twisting my words to support his arguments when were basically agreeing on the same thing. Im still not sure where the actual disconnect is here as Im usually pretty good at getting my point across and not mincing words.

MY original post was about not surrendering my rights as a vaper in favor of someone elses as a non-smoker.I never said that my rights should supersede theirs or alluded to it in any fashion.

I agree that sometimes people take it too far but my contention has been that simply exercising my right to vape shouldnt be seen as impinging on someone elses rights or being called entitled.

Maybe I should have been clearer. Im not advocating sitting in a dentist office and vaping after being asked not too.In that scenario I would just leave and take my business elsewhere.Same goes for ANY establishment where money changes hands.They have a right not to allow it and I have a right to go somewhere else.

On the flip side of that coin, Uncle Willies dog walker has the right to take another route or find another area if the mere act of me vaping offends him. My rights end where his begin and vice versa.

I hope thats a little clearer for everyone reading it.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I used to feel exactly this way and was surprised at some of the stuff. Dental office, someone in authority coming out from the back to saying you can't do that in here very firmly. People I know who get offended like its smoke ( old people) and I've never even considered it to be ok in a restaurant or grocery store. It's not so much about what should be ok but about making people uncomfortable, including myself if I'm honest so basically in public places I don't do it because I want a to have a pleasant day and usually that happens when I can make someone's day a little better or be left alone and not have someone be in my space about their weird world. To some people vaping is weird. Period.

This is an excellent post .. if it looks like smoke, most believe that's what it is ..

So do the "I'll do it where ever and when ever I please" folks really advance the cause by doing so .. ?? Or should the rules of analog smoking hold true for the PV .. ?? Or is it just common courtesy and nothing more .. ?? Should we all be prepared to give an on the spot seminar on the PV and carry supporting material with us .. ??

Myself, I abided by the rules of the analog / then my State went non-smoking in all public buildings so I abided by that .. which includes Casinos/Bars that I like to visit periodically .. then, when I took up the PV, I simply continued to abide by the rules I had already been abiding by .. my stance is I don't need the nic all the time / everytime / ..

I'd also like to add that whether or not we agree on this topic, I find the debate stimulating and generally thought provoking .. and I do respect all opinions expressed .. although I will respectfully disagree with some ..

 

[zapped]

The question was : And that a private business has no right to limit the use of a PV in their space .. ?? Movie theaters, restaurants, concert venues, Opera houses, malls, shops, airplanes .. ??

Just to be clear : My stance is they have the right ..

Were splitting hairs now. Of course they have the right. They can say that all diners have to wear red jackets and a tie as well. I also have the right to leave and take my business elsewhere. Goes back to the whole "Your rights end where mine begin" thing. Its a two way street.

Fortunately, in the state that Im from I have a letter stating the Attorney Generals stance on the subject. You can find that here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/law-e-cigarette/88422-virginia-attorney-general-rules-e-cigs.htmlTheyre still well within their rights to not allow it but at least in the eyes of the law, I can and have let them know they were full of .... (in the nicest way possible) and hopefully educated them in the process.

 

[zapped]

This is an excellent post .. if it looks like smoke, most believe that's what it is ..

So do the "I'll do it where ever and when ever I please" folks really advance the cause by doing so .. ?? Or should the rules of analog smoking hold true for the PV .. ?? Or is it just common courtesy and nothing more .. ?? Should we all be prepared to give an on the spot seminar on the PV and carry supporting material with us .. ??

Myself, I abided by the rules of the analog / then my State went non-smoking in all public buildings so I abided by that .. which includes Casinos/Bars that I like to visit periodically .. then, when I took up the PV, I simply continued to abide by the rules I had already been abiding by .. my stance is I don't need the nic all the time / everytime / ..

I'd also like to add that whether or not we agree on this topic, I find the debate stimulating and generally thought provoking .. and I do respect all opinions expressed .. although I will respectfully disagree with some ..

Youre misunderstanding what some people are trying to say here and maybe that was my fault for not being clear. I will vape until asked not to and then I'll leave politely.

Obviously Im not going to do that in a daycare center or in the middle of a courtroom....the real question here and the cause for debate is where people draw that line.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I started to respond to thejeffs previous post several times and found myself at a loss for words every time. Thats pretty unusual for me and I think stems from the fact the hes twisting my words to support his arguments when were basically agreeing on the same thing. Im still not sure where the actual disconnect is here as Im usually pretty good at getting my point across and not mincing words.

MY original post was about not surrendering my rights as a vaper in favor of someone elses as a non-smoker.I never said that my rights should supersede theirs or alluded to it in any fashion.

I agree that sometimes people take it too far but my contention has been that simply exercising my right to vape shouldnt be seen as impinging on someone elses rights or being called entitled.

Maybe I should have been clearer. Im not advocating sitting in a dentist office and vaping after being asked not too.In that scenario I would just leave and take my business elsewhere.Same goes for ANY establishment where money changes hands.They have a right not to allow it and I have a right to go somewhere else.

On the flip side of that coin, Uncle Willies dog walker has the right to take another route or find another area if the mere act of me vaping offends him. My rights end where his begin and vice versa.

I hope thats a little clearer for everyone reading it.

As unbelievable as it may sound, we are in general agreement ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

Youre misunderstanding what some people are trying to say here and maybe that was my fault for not being clear. I will vape until asked not to and then I'll leave politely.

Obviously Im not going to do that in a daycare center or in the middle of a courtroom....the real question here and the cause for debate is where people draw that line.

And all I'm suggesting is that the line should be drawn ..

 

[thejeff]

I think we can unanimously stand up in support of the right to vape on public property- anywhere smoking is allowed, so should vaping be, as well... The crux of my stance is that people have a right to know what's happening around them. Around smokers, I brandish my PV pretty readily; around non-smokers, I ask, "Mind if I vape?" My girlfriend and friends have their preferences of what I vape, just because of the scent (my favorite coffee vape smells like rancid feet when I exhale, for some reason). But I should probably do as Zapped, and further clarify my position: I want to vape everywhere. Personally, I don't think it's a danger to anyone else, but I also acknowledge others' right to perceive it as a danger, or as a nuisance. I think that we should, as a community, be pushing for total access (does that phrase work outside my head?), but that the first step is education, and the only mode of approach, courtesy. We want people not only to listen, but to want to listen, and that means giving them a comfortable space and an intriguing introduction. Their comfort will hinge on having the option to say 'no,' and we have to be okay with that- the greatest victory we can achieve for vaping rights is to be INVITED into a place as vapers, rather than wedging ourselves in and being tolerated.

 

[daddytwigs]

I appreciate your post/rant whatever you think of it...
It's all about respect.i know, i can be pretty rude at times. But, being militant and obnoxious about our choices isn't going to help matters. I, personally, don't have an entitlement problem.when I'm not in my home, vehicle, business, etc., I consider myself a guest and will comply with whatever my "hosts" wishes are. If that includes not vaping, so be it...

 

[patkin]

I used to feel exactly this way and was surprised at some of the stuff. Dental office, someone in authority coming out from the back to saying you can't do that in here very firmly. People I know who get offended like its smoke ( old people) and I've never even considered it to be ok in a restaurant or grocery store. It's not so much about what should be ok but about making people uncomfortable, including myself if I'm honest so basically in public places I don't do it because I want a to have a pleasant day and usually that happens when I can make someone's day a little better or be left alone and not have someone be in my space about their weird world. To some people vaping is weird. Period.

I'm sorry but I really, really, have to take issue with your "old people" statement... hoping to "enlighten" you. I'm 69 and part of the "smoking generation" for that matter. We're the greatest population trying to kick the habit and suffering the most health consequences from smoking and, yes, it follows we're probably, percentage of population wise, the highest number of vapers. Have you stepped over to the Old people and vaping area? Check it out. No, not wishing to sound like-minded in reverse, I've found those most vehemently anti-smoking and anti-vaping as well are "youngish" nanny-state mentality progressive types. Just using logic alone: When did the anti-smoking movement enter schools? Certainly not in the older generation time. We were those kid's grandparents by then. So just step back on the old folks being anti-vapers. We were the civil rights marchers and "do your thing" hippies and flower children. We older folks carry enough on our shoulders without this one being pinned on us.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I think we can unanimously stand up in support of the right to vape on public property- anywhere smoking is allowed, so should vaping be, as well... The crux of my stance is that people have a right to know what's happening around them. Around smokers, I brandish my PV pretty readily; around non-smokers, I ask, "Mind if I vape?" My girlfriend and friends have their preferences of what I vape, just because of the scent (my favorite coffee vape smells like rancid feet when I exhale, for some reason). But I should probably do as Zapped, and further clarify my position: I want to vape everywhere. Personally, I don't think it's a danger to anyone else, but I also acknowledge others' right to perceive it as a danger, or as a nuisance. I think that we should, as a community, be pushing for total access (does that phrase work outside my head?), but that the first step is education, and the only mode of approach, courtesy. We want people not only to listen, but to want to listen, and that means giving them a comfortable space and an intriguing introduction. Their comfort will hinge on having the option to say 'no,' and we have to be okay with that- the greatest victory we can achieve for vaping rights is to be INVITED into a place as vapers, rather than wedging ourselves in and being tolerated.

An excellent summation .. IMO .. I have introduced many to the PV, I have been approached by many curious, .. and I don't believe second hand vapor poses harm .. (smelly feet exhale not with standing) .. and yes, it would be great to be able to do it anywhere with acceptance and not a second look from bystanders .. however, even in a perfect World, I don't know if that will ever happen .. at least in my lifetime ..

 

[thejeff]

I started to respond to thejeffs previous post several times and found myself at a loss for words every time. Thats pretty unusual for me and I think stems from the fact the hes twisting my words to support his arguments when were basically agreeing on the same thing. Im still not sure where the actual disconnect is here as Im usually pretty good at getting my point across and not mincing words.

MY original post was about not surrendering my rights as a vaper in favor of someone elses as a non-smoker.I never said that my rights should supersede theirs or alluded to it in any fashion.

I agree that sometimes people take it too far but my contention has been that simply exercising my right to vape shouldnt be seen as impinging on someone elses rights or being called entitled.

Maybe I should have been clearer. Im not advocating sitting in a dentist office and vaping after being asked not too.In that scenario I would just leave and take my business elsewhere.Same goes for ANY establishment where money changes hands.They have a right not to allow it and I have a right to go somewhere else.

On the flip side of that coin, Uncle Willies dog walker has the right to take another route or find another area if the mere act of me vaping offends him. My rights end where his begin and vice versa.

I hope thats a little clearer for everyone reading it.

I sincerely apologize if I misinterpreted or misconstrued your position, Zapped. I find it difficult in the forum format to stop and ask for clarification when it's so often quicker to the point to rebut what I think I'm reading... regardless, I am enjoying the discourse, and it has helped me to better understand my position and develop my opinions- I greatly appreciate your contributions and the questions that they have posed!

 

[budynbuick]

This thread has been brought to you by the word ubiquitous.

LOL. I feel like I've been scolded. I hope we all have learnt the error of our ways.

 

[thejeff]

LOL. I feel like I've been scolded. I hope we all have learnt the error of our ways.

I would not go so far as scolding... much like a new artist will miss details in drawing, like the grooves on the knuckles of a finger, sometimes we all need a little perspective. My OP came across as somewhat combative, because I had just read a couple of 'vent' threads to the tune of, "Only idiots don't know that vaping is harmless! I should be allowed to vape wherever and whenever I want!" That irritates me... I probably would not be so harsh if I were not a vaper and not invested in the future of my lifestyle. That said, I think this thread has become about the way forward for the vaping community, and that's really cool... I hope that our community at large reflects the thoughts and sentiments presented here, and works together toward a brighter, more vapor-filled future!

 

[budynbuick]

While we are clearing the air,it would also be nice if men & women would consider people that get ill inhaling their poisonous cologne/perfume. Oh, I forgot,that doesn't count cause its the majority being inconsiderate. In a democracy only the minority has to be considerate of others. I ran jobs (many yrs ago)for a paint co & sometimes we would go into a office setting with 20 or so women wearing 20 different smells & you couldn't smell 'any' of them ,but you could smell 'all' of them . It was worse then two part epoxy paint. While I'm on a roll, if air samples were taken in a mall,the air would be considered unfit to breath. If folks understood what was in dryer sheets,cologne,air fresheners & the like, they would....uh,maybe.....start a protest? Instead they cry about someone blowing vapor with in ten yds of them. Its called,straining @ a gnat & swallowing a camel(not the cigarette).

 

[zapped]

I sincerely apologize if I misinterpreted or misconstrued your position, Zapped. I find it difficult in the forum format to stop and ask for clarification when it's so often quicker to the point to rebut what I think I'm reading... regardless, I am enjoying the discourse, and it has helped me to better understand my position and develop my opinions- I greatly appreciate your contributions and the questions that they have posed!

Same here.Its frustrating sometimes, I think when you have two or more people expressing the same thing but coming from two totally different directions to get there.

Ive enjoyed reading the commentary in this thread as well and I think it shows that we CAN all get along and come to a consensus.

 

[acezzz]

I just wanted to post about something that gets on my nerves; namely, I'm tired of the sentiment of entitlement to vape wherever and whenever.

Now, don't get me wrong, I remember when e-cigs were relatively new, and the idea of not having to stand in the cold, the rain, or the heat was revolutionary. We thought we were expelling water vapor, and that e-cigs were risk-free. Now we know better, so let's get real:

There is no conclusive scientific evidence that e-cigs are risk-free, and 'reduced harm' sounds way too much like spin. What we, as vapers, use is a 'modified risk' nicotine product. We inhale propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, ethyl alcohol, and food flavorings, and we have no clear idea of the potential health consequences over thirty or more years of use of these products via the vaporizer delivery system. Studies conducted thus far have established that e-cigs do not present the same concerns as tobacco products, which is nice, but we (as a community AND as individuals) should stop pretending that this equates to being risk-free. We (I) use e-cigs in faith that they present a reduced risk to health, and I truly believe they do... but the science isn't there to back me up.

As for businesses that ban the use of e-cigs, we should take a moment to look at ourselves from the outside. We have a beautiful community of caring people, and a fun, involved culture, but non-vapers don't know that. You can't fault a business that doesn't want to see plumes of vapor in its establishment- think about how easy it is to mistake vapor for smoke (the reason many of us started vaping). Just because we believe that vaping is safer, and there is some evidence of that, does not mean that everyone has to accept this conclusion. The science simply is not there, yet. Personally, I don't mind vaping bans, if they sit alongside tobacco bans (at the level of business establishments, anyway; in terms of legislation, I obviously don't want to see a ban).

Some businesses ban the use of both tobacco and e-cigs by their employees on and near the business premises. This is not about having an anti-tobacco or anti-vaping attitude, it's about professionalism.Threatening to boycott on those grounds is petty, in my opinion.

Some businesses do not have a clear policy on e-cigs, and the burden lies on US to determine these policies. To begin, DO NOT walk into a business and start vaping without a word. That's a great way to elicit a knee-jerk reaction, and remember, this is going to be a reaction to "Is that guy smoking?" Rather, when you go to a business or venue, even one where smoking is allowed, ask someone whether vaping is allowed. Use terminology that is more accessible; for instance, "Excuse me... what is your policy on the use of nicotine vaporizers?" You may be asked about what a nicotine vaporizer is; this is the appropriate time to produce your PV and explain its use and contents. Avoid telling someone "It's just water vapor!" That's wrong, unless you're just vaping water.

Most importantly, bear in mind that vaping is not ubiquitous, it's been the subject of a TON of misinformation and propaganda, and most people think of an e-cigarette as essentially the equivalent to an analog, just without an open flame; therefore, when you talk to someone about vaping, YOU are doing PR for the cause. Every time someone gets petty or belligerent about vaping, it hurts the cause, and it hurts all of us.

Thank you for reading, thank you for vaping and supporting the industry, and thank you for being a part of this awesome community!

Maybe if you read this article on page 4 touted by a major heart center you will feel a little better>>>https://www.saintlukeshealthsystem....ltants/newsletter/SLCC News Fall 12 FINAL.pdf

 

[budynbuick]

Rachel Ray did enormous damage

She "does' enormous damage with the food she promotes. Hydrogenated corn oil does more damage to the heart then anything people eat. Yes, she uses virgin OL,but that is for the wealthy.The Hydrogenated corn oil is for the 'less fortunate'(read poor). I wish the bird of paradise would fly up her............I forgot.

 

[zapped]

She "does' enormous damage with the food she promotes. Hydrogenated corn oil does more damage to the heart then anything people eat. Yes, she uses virgin OL,but that is for the wealthy.The Hydrogenated corn oil is for the 'less fortunate'(read poor). I wish the bird of paradise would fly up her............I forgot.

Personally, I think the only person who takes Rachel Ray with any degree of seriousness is herself. The fact that the Food Network put her and Guy Fiero together for a show only proves it.

She's certainly attractive enough.......until she opens her mouth.