ignorant analog smoker!
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I honestly don't give a rat's .... if people continue to smoke, I just don't want them to come crying to me when their lung cancer treatment bankrupts them. Eat all the cheeseburgers you want, I just don't want to pay for your heart attacks.
This. I'm all about informing as many people as possible that e-cigs exist, so that people who want to quit but haven't found a way to do so know it's out there.
But if they want to smoke anyway? Go right ahead. Not my lungs.
This is why I didn't have a bitter word to say every time cigarette taxes went up. Even when I was living in the UK and it was costing the equivalent of (with the conversion rate at the time) $16 US a pack. Yes, really.
Those taxes are intended to pay for the golden years of illness and infirmity that many life-long smokers have to look forward to. It's true that not as much of that money goes towards that as it should - but that is the intent.
I'm 21. I grew up in the golden age of anti-smoking campaigns. I know all of the risks of smoking. I have since I was knee-high. I knew damn well what I was doing to my body, not just because of the age I grew up in, but because of how much worse I FELT, even after just a couple years of heavy smoking.
If they want to tax the hell out of cigarettes to help pay for my future of sickliness? Fine. Go ahead. And they should do the same with fast food. Because you're right - you shouldn't be paying for someone else's heart attack.
It's not a punishment, and it's not discrimination. While it's true that there is a lot of fear-mongering and pseudo-science surrounding the effects of smoking, the fundamental truth is that smokers as a whole die younger and sicker than non-smokers. Often times they require years of expensive care as they age.
There's no larger implication there. It's not saying people "choose" to be addicts, or that smokers are "evil." It's just what it is. It costs more to keep smokers alive than it does non-smokers.
Most of my friends smoke. And sitting there listening to them complain about cigarette taxes while they hacked their brains out (and I did the same) was really ironic. Seriously? You sound like a 70-year-old at 25 and you're complaining about being taxed to help pay for your hospital bed?
As Seth and Amy would say, "Really? REALLY?"
We have to come to grips with our own reality and accept the implications of that.
What I wish people would do is educate themselves about risk. I wish they would learn to understand that scientific propaganda is a dangerous tool, designed to create an environment of fear that allows political groups such as anti-smoking to be in charge of lifestyle, regulations that affect us all, and most importantly money. It is science itself under attack when risk is spun solely for these purposes. The media spins it; the public fears; Big Brother gains control. Here is a wonderful site that explains both risk and the many ways it can be spun. 2845 ways to spin the Risk | Understanding Uncertainty
I vape around people all the time and never initiate the conversation about ecigs until I see them eyeing it and trying to figure out what it is. At that point I explain it to them. I almost never get a negative response. Most people are amazed that it works as a pain free alternative to tobacco and are very positive about it being an alternative that works.
We all know people who have agonized over trying to quit tobacco cigarettes and failed miserably. I have one friend who was airlifted from the infield at Talladega raceway after having what the EMTs called a massive heart attack. He was taken to Birmingham, got two stints, and started smoking again after being released. After multiple failed attempts at quitting cold turkey, he tried chewing tobacco and still carries that and a cup in his vehicle everywhere he goes. Vaping would be the cure, but he likes chewing tobacco and I'm alright with that. Everyone to their own method, IMO.
We all know people who have agonized over trying to quit tobacco cigarettes and failed miserably. I have one friend who was airlifted from the infield at Talladega raceway after having what the EMTs called a massive heart attack. He was taken to Birmingham, got two stints, and started smoking again after being released. After multiple failed attempts at quitting cold turkey, he tried chewing tobacco and still carries that and a cup in his vehicle everywhere he goes. Vaping would be the cure, but he likes chewing tobacco and I'm alright with that. Everyone to their own method, IMO.
I didn't say I ageed with it all. I specifically stated that I didn't agree that part. The point was that some smokers will use the same arguments for "debunking" claims about the risks of smoking the same way we debunk the claims about e-cigarettes. So, trying to rationalize the health benefit to some smokers is a waste of time - they aren't buying what the antis are selling. If they don't think the risks are as great, they take offense to being called ignorant and stupid for thinking that and think WE are the ones who are brainwashed and misled.
The problem is that smokers see lines being crossed, not reading between them. This is a politically charged topic and shouldn't meant to be taken lightly. If one post making fun of "ignorant analog smokers" is made, others will follow. Smokers read these types of posts and they take offense. It's no different than if you saw posts on a quit smoking forum talking about how pathetic vapers are because they "look stupid sucking on a battery" and are still "feeding their addiction."
From this thread:
"ignorant analog smoker"
"big smoke companies have really brainwashed him"
"Being stupid enough to believe the government"
"Natural selection went out of style a long time ago and people like that are the result of it"
"people are ignorant at this point it's because they want to be ignorant"
"convince an idiot to not do something to harm itself"
"people who don't care about themselves"
"whacked out excuses"
"stupid nonsense"
"little scary, pretty sad and a touch comical to realize that I was one of them"
"I'll just be vaping away at his funeral"
"Some people, even our friends, can be very very stupid"
"they defend the analogs that they know will kill them one way or another"
"I never made stupid excuses like 90% of smokers"
If I was still smoking, I would find all of this highly offensive and it has nothing to do with being "misinformed." I just want people to think hard about what they are saying and how it could be taken by other people. I read similar comments by smoking nazis about vapers on articles about e-cigarettes.
Exactly. And threads like this perpetuate that it's ok. It's NOT ok. We shouldn't be making fun of anyone, no matter how ridiculous we think their motivations or excuses are.
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I think it is safe to say there is a lot of ignorance going around, and smokers certainly DO NOT have the monopoly on that.
People in general tend to believe the first thing they hear about a new topic. Smoker, non-smoker, man, woman, child, white, black, purple, whatever. People.
I think it is safe to say that the truth is, in both cases, a shade of gray.
It is unlikely that vaping is as safe as breathing in clean air. People who claim that have no basis for it.
It is also unlikely that every single new side effect of smoking is true. Give it a few more years, and people will be trying to claim that every time you light a cig, a kitten dies.
Here's what we do know. Smoking is bad for you. Vaping is probably a lot less bad for you. That's it.
Non-smokers are just as generally ignorant of these things as smokers are. People who take the time to really do their homework about much of anything are few and far between.
There are all kinds of sociological reasons why this may be the case - the education system certainly doesn't encourage critical thinking anymore. I'd know. I graduated from one of the best public high schools in the country 3 years ago, and they actively discouraged critical thinking. There was nothing my teachers hated more than my tendency to research everything they told me.
So I think what we need to be doing here, is divorcing the problem of ignorance from smokers. It's not smokers. It's the culture we live in. And those of us who have informed ourselves have a duty to not only inform others, but push for more research so that we can give more definitive and comprehensive information.
People in general tend to believe the first thing they hear about a new topic. Smoker, non-smoker, man, woman, child, white, black, purple, whatever. People.
I think it is safe to say that the truth is, in both cases, a shade of gray.
It is unlikely that vaping is as safe as breathing in clean air. People who claim that have no basis for it.
It is also unlikely that every single new side effect of smoking is true. Give it a few more years, and people will be trying to claim that every time you light a cig, a kitten dies.
Here's what we do know. Smoking is bad for you. Vaping is probably a lot less bad for you. That's it.
Non-smokers are just as generally ignorant of these things as smokers are. People who take the time to really do their homework about much of anything are few and far between.
There are all kinds of sociological reasons why this may be the case - the education system certainly doesn't encourage critical thinking anymore. I'd know. I graduated from one of the best public high schools in the country 3 years ago, and they actively discouraged critical thinking. There was nothing my teachers hated more than my tendency to research everything they told me.
So I think what we need to be doing here, is divorcing the problem of ignorance from smokers. It's not smokers. It's the culture we live in. And those of us who have informed ourselves have a duty to not only inform others, but push for more research so that we can give more definitive and comprehensive information.
I know that no chemical can ever be declared to be 100% safe.. But I definitely believe that it is 100% fact that e-cigarettes being as dangerous as smoking is impossible. A number of chemicals you can count on one hand vs. thousands. The worst that anyone could throw at it was finding trace amounts of something toxic in, what, one of 19 products they tested? And then in a small trace amount hardly measurable? And whatever it was (DEG??) is in cigarettes in much higher concentrations anyway?
I agree whole heartedly that we live in a very ignorant society. It's a packaged life nation. Pick a chemical mess from wal-store or a fast food place for dinner, play the coolest video game or watch the coolest sports team, pay your taxes and don't question anything. Fall in line. Got to be cool. Got to have the best car. Got to agree with the gov if you love America.
I went to a public school, myself!! I was there for what seemed like an eternity, but I left very early! I was only twelve. I was far ahead of the normal kids there, several "grade levels", but not because those other idiots were stupid - they were just lazy ....... I was a real trouble maker in school when I was that young because it was so boring. They fixed me up so I just went straight to the principles office when I would go in every morning.
Not having such prolonged exposure to the school system and normal people really helped me out. I spent most of my time as a child with older wiser people. I learned what is really going on in the states and missed out on wonderful things like drugs and football and all of that .... so that really helped me not be a programmed mindless sheep.
I believe that it's the same way in colleges sometimes .. where they don't like being questioned .. I have heard horror stories of teachers forcing their politics if someone wants a good grade. They should be
for that!! Teaching and shaping minds is a sacred trust and anyone who would abuse it in furthering some personal agenda is a horrible person!!!I know that ignorance isn't just for the smokers but I do think that they take it farther than even a normal person does because of the lower brain making one feel as if the smoking is necessary for survival. The lower brain gets violently upset anytime it feels like it's going to be deprived of breathing, eating and yes ... smoking
Like this when I am eating and someone tries to reach for something on my plate.. I will come across that table and stab them with a fork. I've always been that way. When I'm eating - stay back.
Smokers are the same way about cigarettes. You can't challenge their beloved cigarette any more than you could challenge my eating. I understand where they're coming from, but I guess the anti smokers looking down on me or heckling me never bothered me. I have thick thick skin and am use to being a sort of an outcast for not being like the normal people. I've always been not only okay with it but I am proud of not being like they are!!
I suppose it is just difficult for me to imagine anyone ever believing that vapers are brainwashed or misled. Could that be possible if they would take even three minutes to do a little research or think it through a little? You're saying, I think, let's not scare them off or dissuade them from taking that step.. Right? I certainly agree. Of course you and I always seem to end up violently disagreeing when we agree .. LoL over here .. I see that you really try to listen to what I say so I sure do my best to return the favor !!!
It is so difficult!!
One guy has convinced himself he's killing nicotine with fire.. Goodness.. So difficult to not laugh yourself to death or want to put your hand through a wall when you hear like that!! Especially when people say the same kind of thing about other important life or death matters. I would think being ridiculed or made fun of or berated would shock people into using their braincells.. that is how things work in my world. But I guess what I didn't see was that the effect it'll have on most people is to just make them run away pouting..
Sigh
I've never heckled anyone for smoking or preached at them but when someone says something that stupid to me, next time, I will try to restrain myself from telling them how stupid it is.
THE - The difference in our opinions is only this - that I am more interested in using any means necessary to get the correct information out there, and to acquire more of it. I am even willing to keep my personal opinion a little softened and hushed. Because at the end of the day, my opinion is only mine and its worth can only be seen and measured by me.
But helping people quit smoking has endless subjective and objective worth to me, and pretty much everyone else.
I don't want to fight with these people. I want to be part of the mechanism that helps to educate them, and to educate US.
I'm look at the endgame.
You're looking at the ground directly in front of you.
If you really do want to be part of this movement, and if you really do want to have a positive impact, I think you should reconsider that strategy.
But... that is my opinion.
See how that works?
But helping people quit smoking has endless subjective and objective worth to me, and pretty much everyone else.
I don't want to fight with these people. I want to be part of the mechanism that helps to educate them, and to educate US.
I'm look at the endgame.
You're looking at the ground directly in front of you.
If you really do want to be part of this movement, and if you really do want to have a positive impact, I think you should reconsider that strategy.
But... that is my opinion.
See how that works?
I think we posted at the same time.. Did you see what I said on the last post of Pg. 5?
I have already decided that if I ever decide to actually promote the vaping forum I built, I will not ever - ever - push my own thoughts or agenda on anyone there. I can't STAND media outlets or gathering places that FORCE anything on anyone. And I've been very open to what you are both telling me about not dissuading people from vaping by being strong arm or making light of their situation.
I don't think I've ever really been guilty of being an anti smoking nazi!!
Sure, in this thread I made fun of some ridiculous things some smokers said but I would have done the same if it was people believing that cheese could burn a hole in your hand..
I don't think I've ever really been guilty of being an anti smoking nazi!!
Sure, in this thread I made fun of some ridiculous things some smokers said but I would have done the same if it was people believing that cheese could burn a hole in your hand..
Simply put, if you have no desire to quit analogs, then you'll come up with any excuse YOU PERSONALLY can accept, it doesn't have to be logical, or sound just something the smoker would believe.
Almost 2 years ago friends of mine tried to get me to consider e-cigs, I wouldn't hear of it... It was not until I wanted to change for whatever reason mine was money, some are health but whatever. It was not until than that i even considered it.
As I explain it to my analog friends, vaping is different than smoking period, but it's not as different as changing brands of cigs... That was my experience and I really feel that sums it up for most vapers.
Almost 2 years ago friends of mine tried to get me to consider e-cigs, I wouldn't hear of it... It was not until I wanted to change for whatever reason mine was money, some are health but whatever. It was not until than that i even considered it.
As I explain it to my analog friends, vaping is different than smoking period, but it's not as different as changing brands of cigs... That was my experience and I really feel that sums it up for most vapers.
Did I get this from ECF?
2845 ways to spin the Risk | Understanding Uncertainty
2845 ways to spin the Risk | Understanding Uncertainty
THE, I can't say I don't agree with the sentiment of this thread - just that we should fight the urge to do it. I GET the frustration, because I believe in e-cigarettes and smokeless alternatives with all of my heart!
I posted in the veterans forum about my own mother and I'll repost it here so you can see what I mean:
So, I do get it. But I have also heard what smokers think of us and it concerns me. Think of it this way - some people smoked light cigarettes or low tar because they think it's better for them. They probably think those who smoke Camel unfiltereds are crazy. But they were all still "smokers" and the unfiltered smoker never felt "judged" by the filtered smoker. That's how it should be with vapers and smokers, IMO. If smokers see us as yet another anti-smoking group, it'll be that much harder for those who may have listened to hear what we have to say - they shut down. We should help those who choose to listen and not publicly judge or belittle those who choose their own path or we may alienate some who would have otherwise listened. At the very least, we should choose carefully the words we use aren't degrading or belittling. Does that make sense? (It's been a long day and I'm rambling, lam.)
I posted in the veterans forum about my own mother and I'll repost it here so you can see what I mean:
So, I do get it. But I have also heard what smokers think of us and it concerns me. Think of it this way - some people smoked light cigarettes or low tar because they think it's better for them. They probably think those who smoke Camel unfiltereds are crazy. But they were all still "smokers" and the unfiltered smoker never felt "judged" by the filtered smoker. That's how it should be with vapers and smokers, IMO. If smokers see us as yet another anti-smoking group, it'll be that much harder for those who may have listened to hear what we have to say - they shut down. We should help those who choose to listen and not publicly judge or belittle those who choose their own path or we may alienate some who would have otherwise listened. At the very least, we should choose carefully the words we use aren't degrading or belittling. Does that make sense? (It's been a long day and I'm rambling, lam.)
I suppose it is just difficult for me to imagine anyone ever believing that vapers are brainwashed or misled. Could that be possible if they would take even three minutes to do a little research or think it through a little? You're saying, I think, let's not scare them off or dissuade them from taking that step.. Right? I certainly agree. Of course you and I always seem to end up violently disagreeing when we agree .. LoL over here .. I see that you really try to listen to what I say so I sure do my best to return the favor !!!
It is so difficult!!
I would think being ridiculed or made fun of or berated would shock people into using their braincells.. that is how things work in my world. But I guess what I didn't see was that the effect it'll have on most people is to just make them run away pouting..
Sigh
I've never heckled anyone for smoking or preached at them but when someone says something that stupid to me, next time, I will try to restrain myself from telling them how stupid it is.
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I know that you get it Ms. Kristin. The only thing I don't get bout you and me is why it seems to be so difficult for the twos of us to agree on something when we agree. I think we both give the other one of the two of us a chance and do our best to read carefully what one of us is saying to the other one. I'm not sure where we always go wrong. I'm going to try to find that other thread where I ended up throwing my hands up and try to see where we ran off course that time, too.
Some people who have told me they are okay because they smoke lights.. I just tell them it is a trick because people who smoke lights tend to either draw the smoke deeper or smoke more.. MOST of them kind of get a lightbulb over there head and say ohhhhhhhhh .. some of them go into denial.. Oh well .. I don't try to take it farther
You know I think I know what to say to your mother. It's like this, you're not just hurting yourself, I don't want to lose you. Ask her if it doesn't scare her just a little that she seems like she's lying to herself about her smoking. I bet that your mother cares deeply for you. I bet she doesn't want to hurt you. Let her know how much you love her, often, and that you do not want to lose her. I know that people can only quit because THEY want to but I also just bet that she might want to for you because I bet she wants to not hurt you and it's probably very important to her!
I'm rambling too!!!! LoL over here. But what I am saying, is, turn her desire to be good to you into a desire to not smoke. She won't be doing it for you (quitting for someone else NEVER works) but she'll be doing it for HER. Because it is a selfish act to do something good for someone you love, there is a-lot of pleasure in it!! And if the most important thing to her is to not hurt you then she's not doing it for you she's doing it for her.
If that makes sense .. not sure how to put what I am saying.
Give her some gentle reminders that she's not just hurting herself. That helps me not want to drink myself into a coma sometimes - not wanting to hurt my sister!! Of course, most of the family has used and hurt me a-lot. So when I get drunk it's my turn to not care and I sure give them all hell, then!! HA, ha .. HA!!!! It is wonderful - when I am loaded I tell them all to go to hell (like I should!) and I get to not care, for once. But when I get out of control and do something embarrassing or pathetic, I feel horrible if my sister finds out then.
I have to disagree that going back to smoking had nothing to do with addiction.. I've seen one cigarette take 10+ year quits down. Joel's Library - Never Take Another Puff!
One puff can send you back to your old level of cigarette consumption within days. We have had clinic participants who have previously quit smoking for periods exceeding 20 years. One day they decide to try just one. Even after this great period of time, the first cigarette is enough to start the whole addiction withdrawal process.
You have an excellent point about smokers and vapers. People who vape need to understand that they're not better than smokers. I and anyone who vapes should remember where they came from and understand that we're not heroes. Like I keep saying - we haven't done anything difficult - I know I haven't! I'm still feeding my addiction. I haven't faced the beast any more than they have. I think the good news is - if the anti-smoking organizations insist on alienating us - guess what - we now have a common bond smokers can SEE and that might mean something.
Just like in the city I remember blacks and mexicans hated eachother. But if you were white or a police officer, a mexican and a black man would be like long lost brothers against you because both groups felt that whites and officers were out to kill them. So even if some very few smokers ended up hating us I still see a common bond bringing us together. Even with the most anti vaping smoker out there.
Another thing is that when you became friends with someone who was black in the city .. you had a friend for life .. my friends there would literally do anything to be there for me. Right down to someone. So if we can bring smokers who despise us over, I believe those types will end up being our strongest allies. Imagine a die hard closed minded smoking fiend coming to our side - other smokers will not ignore that!!
Just like when I was friends with certain people that absolutely HATED whites. Other blacks noticed that and would consider with me then. Like this, jesus man (name here) is down with this guy, he must be okay
See
Good god and you thought YOU were rambling - I just wrote a book
Some people who have told me they are okay because they smoke lights.. I just tell them it is a trick because people who smoke lights tend to either draw the smoke deeper or smoke more.. MOST of them kind of get a lightbulb over there head and say ohhhhhhhhh .. some of them go into denial.. Oh well .. I don't try to take it farther
You know I think I know what to say to your mother. It's like this, you're not just hurting yourself, I don't want to lose you. Ask her if it doesn't scare her just a little that she seems like she's lying to herself about her smoking. I bet that your mother cares deeply for you. I bet she doesn't want to hurt you. Let her know how much you love her, often, and that you do not want to lose her. I know that people can only quit because THEY want to but I also just bet that she might want to for you because I bet she wants to not hurt you and it's probably very important to her!
I'm rambling too!!!! LoL over here. But what I am saying, is, turn her desire to be good to you into a desire to not smoke. She won't be doing it for you (quitting for someone else NEVER works) but she'll be doing it for HER. Because it is a selfish act to do something good for someone you love, there is a-lot of pleasure in it!! And if the most important thing to her is to not hurt you then she's not doing it for you she's doing it for her.
If that makes sense .. not sure how to put what I am saying.
Give her some gentle reminders that she's not just hurting herself. That helps me not want to drink myself into a coma sometimes - not wanting to hurt my sister!! Of course, most of the family has used and hurt me a-lot. So when I get drunk it's my turn to not care and I sure give them all hell, then!! HA, ha .. HA!!!! It is wonderful - when I am loaded I tell them all to go to hell (like I should!) and I get to not care, for once. But when I get out of control and do something embarrassing or pathetic, I feel horrible if my sister finds out then.
I have to disagree that going back to smoking had nothing to do with addiction.. I've seen one cigarette take 10+ year quits down. Joel's Library - Never Take Another Puff!
One puff can send you back to your old level of cigarette consumption within days. We have had clinic participants who have previously quit smoking for periods exceeding 20 years. One day they decide to try just one. Even after this great period of time, the first cigarette is enough to start the whole addiction withdrawal process.
You have an excellent point about smokers and vapers. People who vape need to understand that they're not better than smokers. I and anyone who vapes should remember where they came from and understand that we're not heroes. Like I keep saying - we haven't done anything difficult - I know I haven't! I'm still feeding my addiction. I haven't faced the beast any more than they have. I think the good news is - if the anti-smoking organizations insist on alienating us - guess what - we now have a common bond smokers can SEE and that might mean something.
Just like in the city I remember blacks and mexicans hated eachother. But if you were white or a police officer, a mexican and a black man would be like long lost brothers against you because both groups felt that whites and officers were out to kill them. So even if some very few smokers ended up hating us I still see a common bond bringing us together. Even with the most anti vaping smoker out there.
Another thing is that when you became friends with someone who was black in the city .. you had a friend for life .. my friends there would literally do anything to be there for me. Right down to
someone. So if we can bring smokers who despise us over, I believe those types will end up being our strongest allies. Imagine a die hard closed minded smoking fiend coming to our side - other smokers will not ignore that!!Just like when I was friends with certain people that absolutely HATED whites. Other blacks noticed that and would consider
with me then. Like this, jesus man (name here) is down with this guy, he must be okaySee
Good god and you thought YOU were rambling - I just wrote a book
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