Nicotine less addictive via vaping then smoking?

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DaveSignal

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they are two different things for many different reasons.
smoking is considered an addiction because of the
harm that the smoke does not,the nicotine.
people seem to forget that 70% of habitual smokers
do not develop a dependency to smoking. that's
why 50% just quit when they get into their 30's.
nicotine may be classified as a drug but,to compare it to
other drugs legal or otherwise is very misleading in terms
of what some of those other drugs legal or otherwise can
and will do to some ones health and mental stability.
it not the same thing.
:2c:
regards
mike
"Dependency" is a term used by medical professionals to describe a drug addiction. Something being harmful to the human body has no relevance to the terms addiction or dependency.
 

VNeil

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Yea guys ... if you read my "long winded" post you would see that I mentioned I am addicted to nicotine.......... I expounded upon it and dissected it because there are many on this forum who think that nicotine is 100% not addictive because of tests that were conducted with non-smokers.......... For myself though, I disagree with that study......... I have spent many years trying to become un-addicted to nicotine and without success......... even vaping I am still addicted to nicotine and desire my bodily fix. I do agree though that my cravings and desires for nicotine are not as strong as they used to be when I used tobacco products.
Let me get this straight, you disbelieve that study due to your own personal experience. But the study was based on NON-SMOKERS and you were a HEAVY LONG TERM SMOKER. How could your experience possibly be relevant to that study, or any non-smoker that took up vaping with nic juice?

Even the FDA had to abandon the idea that nicotine, by itself, not delivered via combusted tobacco, is "addictive" or harmful in any way to a healthy person.
 

VNeil

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it costs money. and if I had no e-juice and no food, I would go out to the vape store and buy e-juice before I went to the corner shop to buy food.

That is an adverse consequence.
Therefore, I am compulsively engaging in rewarding stimuli, despite adverse consequences. It fits your definition perfectly.
Please tell me you weren't serious with that.

ETA: You can make your own nic eJuice for $.02/ml, or 30 cents for a 15ml bottle. Are you trying to tell me that interferes with your ability to buy food? Please tell me you weren't serious, please.
 

DaveSignal

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Please tell me you weren't serious with that.

ETA: You can make your own nic eJuice for $.02/ml, or 30 cents for a 15ml bottle. Are you trying to tell me that interferes with your ability to buy food? Please tell me you weren't serious, please.
I was serious. Do you want more?

If I was attending some indoor event (where there is no vaping or smoking) that lasted more than a few hours, after awhile I would start thinking about ways to sneek out so that I could enjoy some nicotine. Even if it would cause me to miss part of the indoor event.
That is yet another adverse consequence. Still fits the definition.

ETA: What i meant with the previous example was that I would choose to buy nicotine first, then food later, not that either is interfering... but in the case that I was robbed of nearly all my cash and e-juice on hand, I would surely choose ejuice first.
 

Jman8

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Definition of addiction, per Wikipedia: "Addiction is a state characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli, despite adverse consequences"

Emphasis mine. Words like "addiction" have very specific meanings. Not just what you or anyone else wants the word to mean. There are no significant adverse consequences from ingesting nicotine in the levels we vape.

I think the definition is good. A bit clinical for my tastes, but it works.

Thing is, who defines "adverse consequences?" I get what dictionary says as definition for "adverse" but this is where the clinical doesn't really address reality.

With smoking (cigarettes), it is partially to mostly defined by ANTZ rhetoric. Like people who say things like, "if you can't make it through the grocery story without having a smoke, then you have problems." This implies that if I go to grocery store 10 times, and 9 of those times I don't smoke (or vape), but one of those times I do, then I have a problem. For argument sake, I'm just choosing one of about 50 examples where ANTZ frame the issue in way that pretty much amounts to, any recreational use of this means "you have a problem."

Adverse consequences routinely, in the real world, seem dependent on whether person using (whatever) is taking significant time away from regular relationships. With alcoholism, this becomes so obvious, it is arguably the best / most popular addictive behavior to help make this point clearly. But if person that is alcoholic is in generally decent health, able to work daily and do their job well, then the significant other in their life could be that which is defining all adverse conditions.

With nicotine, it would seem very challenging to see how it could have adverse consequences, that are significant. Yet, not impossible to see how it could have any plausible adverse consequences. IMO, there are exactly zero substances on the planet that have no adverse consequences. If going to be real about the adverse consequences part, then that needs to be emphasized, otherwise, it really does seem to come down to people that are anti-whatever is perceived to be the issue, and then pulling out the "adverse consequences" card. Like if I were anti-science, and heard about a person who stayed late at work routinely on latest scientific project, affecting relationship with a significant other, that would be adverse consequence, and thus "practicing science" could be painted, rather easily, as a (bad) addiction.

I will note two things though. Adverse consequences are generally fairly easy to identify for an addicted person, and self identifying makes most sense, which is how organization like AA tends to handle things. Having someone else identify adverse consequences might be prudent in some cases, but unlikely helpful to person experiencing usage, as they aren't likely to see it through same prism, of "problem." As in smoking/vaping in a grocery story is not inherently a problem.

Second thing is that in all my encounters with "all things addictions," it seems that nic users do have unique perspective due primarily to lack of significant adverse consequences. I really do think it is that tame, and because it is, it is easier for nic users to probe the issues without being overly defensive, yet because of ANTZ stigmatization of nic using, I can relate to the sense of defensiveness that exists. Like if people who were readers were labeled as "shameful" and "hopeless addicts" and 90% of society bought into that worldview, I'd understand if they came off as defensive in explaining their ongoing desire to continue reading (using). I guess what I'm saying is nic users are the type of "addicts" that I find easiest to relate to, as they are generally not shy about accepting the idea of "yeah, I may be addicted. Let's talk about that."
 
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AXIOM_1

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    Pure nic isn't any more addictive than caffeine which is also a stimulant.




    Some food for thought:
    SFATA | Effects of Nicotine
    E-cigarette versus nicotine inhaler: comparing the perceptions and experiences of inhaled nicotine devices. - PubMed - NCBI
    Nicotine as Therapy

    Long-term effects of inhaled nicotine. - PubMed - NCBI
    The Great Nicotine Myth
    How much nicotine kills a human? Tracing back the generally accepted lethal dose to dubious self-experiments in the nineteenth century - Springer
    Top 10 Studies on Nicotine You Need to Know About!

    Edit: No idea why scribd search went into media... Sorry about that.
    Altho what i wanted to say is, i'm way way less dependant on my vape that i was on my ciggs.
    I can go a whole day without vaping. With smokes i would go nearly mental after 2hours without one. This if anything proves that vaping/smoking/inhaling pure nicotine isn't as addictive as ppl want to believe.

    What most ppl (incl me) has issues with is the hand to mouth sensation.


    Now, see this is where I totally disagree ..... I have read each and every single one of those links before..... No I am not wiser than the scientists, but I do think some of their "tests/results" may be flawed..... If you read my "novel" posted above, you will partially see why I feel this way.... Like I mentioned in my post above, there are also other factors besides just nicotine that is responsible for the addictive aspects.

    But if we just focus on nicotine alone ..... It is my personal belief ( no proof) that for some people, nicotine can and is very addicting.... Now if they used every person on the globe as their control subjects then I would have to agree. But, the problem is that humans are very complex entities and medical science has only scratched the surface, plus they only selected just a few individuals for their tests. Not every person is EXACTLY alike, especially towards certain chemicals and substances..... Some people are highly allergic to cat hair and can't tolerate being around cats but yet I own 8 of them and have zero problems. They have a problem with cat hair because of their genetics. Medical science has barely scratched the surface about how complex human genetics is so who is to say that some people aren't very prone to the nicotine while others aren't?? It may be that genetics of some people are geared towards dependency of nicotine while in others it's not.

    I do however, agree with the part about the nicotine cravings while vaping are less than while being a smoker because I have experienced this for myself.
     

    VNeil

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    I was serious. Do you want more?

    If I was attending some indoor event (where there is no vaping or smoking) that lasted more than a few hours, after awhile I would start thinking about ways to sneek out so that I could enjoy some nicotine. Even if it would cause me to miss part of the indoor event.
    That is yet another adverse consequence. Still fits the definition.

    ETA: What i meant with the previous example was that I would choose to buy nicotine first, then food later, not that either is interfering... but in the case that I was robbed of nearly all my cash and e-juice on hand, I would surely choose ejuice first.
    I'm sorry, Dave, but sneaking out for a vape is simply not the adverse consequences intended by the definition. And those consequences have to be more than theoretical thought experiments. You would have to show large numbers of malnutritioned vapers to sell that to anyone but yourself.
     

    zoiDman

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    Its Funny to watch threads like this Evolve.

    And to see how some People base what Everyone should Feel and or Do based on a Single Person's experience. Their Own.

    It is Also Amusing to see how people use words like "Addiction" or "Dependency" when there is No Uniform definition to what these words Mean to the Average Person.
     

    DaveSignal

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    I'm sorry, Dave, but sneaking out for a vape is simply not the adverse consequences intended by the definition. And those consequences have to be more than theoretical thought experiments. You would have to show large numbers of malnutritioned vapers to sell that to anyone but yourself.
    Its a general definition. That is exactly what is intended. All it means is that someone who is 'addicted' to something will find ways to compulsively use that something, even in situations where they have to go out of their way (adverse) in order to use it.
     
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    Jman8

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    Its a general definition. That is exactly what is intended. All it means is that someone who is 'addicted' to something will find ways to compulsively use that something, even in situations where they have to go out of their way (adverse) in order to use it.

    So, if they use it there (compulsively), it is adverse and if they go outside and use (compulsively), that is also adverse.

    Seems about right, for ANTZ logic.
     

    MagicJosh

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    I kind of wonder sometimes if there is something to what you are saying.

    For instance, I use nicotine, but I'm not addicted to it.
    And I have never felt anything at all when I take in nicotine.


    I personally don't feel that nicotine is nearly as addictive as society has been led to believe.

    But it wouldn't surprise me if some people can become addicted to nicotine.
    And it wouldn't surprise me at all if some could become more quickly or easily addicted than others.

    But all the research shows that never smokers simply do not get addicted to patches.
    So it is what it is.
    :)

    Some people quit smoking and chew nicotine gum for YEEEEAAARS after they quite smoking. And have to lower they're dose by the month or week or day. Nicotine is a drug in vape juice in gum in a patch in inhalers. Nomatter what the drug nicotine is in, the ''DRUG'' alone is addicting. I did allot of drugs when I was a kid ALLOT!!. and got hooked to some, But quite! From my experiences in MY life, nicotine has been the most difficult drug I had to quite. And I still Vape and can not live without it as of now. I enjoy vaping too, I understand. I agree with you here: Everyone is different.

    Nicotine is not just mentally addicting, it is physically addicting. That's why It's so tough to quite.
     
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    VNeil

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    Its a general definition. That is exactly what is intended. All it means is that someone who is 'addicted' to something will find ways to compulsively use that something, even in situations where they have to go out of their way (adverse) in order to use it.
    The dictionary definition:
    ad·verse
    adˈvərs,ˈadˌvərs/

    adjective
    1. preventing success or development; harmful; unfavorable.
    Sorry Dave, sneaking out for a vape or choosing to buy juice or a Big Mac today is not "preventing success or development, harmful or necessarily unfavorable" except by you, trying to twist a definition.

    Now, there surely are 100,000 or more subscribers to this site. If you can find me one single post from someone claiming to be malnourished because s/he chose vaping over eating, I'll concede. Just one in 100,000.

    This is my last reply to a rather pointless argument.
     

    DaveSignal

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    So, if they use it there (compulsively), it is adverse and if they go outside and use (compulsively), that is also adverse.

    Seems about right, for ANTZ logic.
    I love nicotine. I am certainly not ANTZ. I love vaping. But denying that I enjoy my addiction to nicotine is pointless. I am not hurting anybody. What I am doing is healthier than smoking. I enjoy my life greatly. I don't need to be ashamed that something I enjoy is addictive.
     
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    VNeil

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    Some people quit smoking and chew nicotine gum for YEEEEAAARS after they quite smoking. And have to lower they're dose by the month or week or day. Nicotine is a drug in vape juice in gum in a patch in inhalers. Nomatter what the drug nicotine is in, the ''DRUG'' alone is addicting. I did allot of drugs when I was a kid ALLOT!!. and got hooked to some, But quite! From my experiences in MY life, nicotine has been the most difficult drug I had to quite. And I still Vape and can not live without it as of now. I enjoy vaping too, I understand. I agree with you here: Everyone is different.

    Nicotine is not just mentally addicting, it is physically addicting. That's why It's so tough to quite.
    If you don't get anything else from this thread, or the links to the facts, please stop confusing Cigarette Addiction with Nicotine Dependency. They are two totally different animals and the science has put that to bed.
     

    DaveSignal

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    The dictionary definition:
    ad·verse
    adˈvərs,ˈadˌvərs/

    adjective
    1. preventing success or development; harmful; unfavorable.
    Sorry Dave, sneaking out for a vape or choosing to buy juice or a Big Mac today is not "preventing success or development, harmful or necessarily unfavorable" except by you, trying to twist a definition.

    I am not trying to twist anything. A definition is meant to be very general. Its not supposed to say "adverse means that it will cause cancer". If someone is posting on ECF so habitually that it disrupts time with the wife, this would be considered adverse. This is just an example. And posting on ECF is certainly addictive.
     
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