So I could turn out to be full of it here.

[dripster]

Apologies to @bombastinator for hijacking the thread on several occasions. But parts of it could be quite relevant to your experiment.

I know you weren’t using a mech for your test and a regulated mod shouldn’t allow your batteries to be over taxed. But if you had your .14 ohm build on a mech with a 30 amp battery you would be looking at this

.14 ohms
4.2 volts
30 amps being drawn
126 watts

Battery life wouldn’t be great and it boarders on dangerous.

So say you ran that on a series deck. A series deck mutilplies instead of halves your resistance for a dual coil build. Now you are at .28 ohms and looking like this

.28 ohms
4.2 volts
15 amps
63 watts

You would be safer. I don’t think there would be a huge improvement in battery life for a mech because you are heating up quite a bit of metal.

But on a regulated device you can up the watts quite a bit and probably notice a improvement on flavor and battery life.

You have to also take the voltage sag of the battery into account. Those 126 watts that you mention are a couple of watts above what you'd get from using a single Samsung 20S battery (assuming the battery is fully charged) with a .11 ohms build on a single battery mech, not .14 ohms actually, so, in the example I gave, in practice that .11 ohms build would be drawing about 33 amps, give or take. Granted, this is still ~10% above the CDR of the Samsung 20S so I don't recommend doing this.

As an aside about the relative safety debate, the reason why people who do it anyway (and there are lots... myself included) aren't necessarily always irresponsible and daredevil type characters is simply because, even though there is some added risk involved, these people if they're well-educated and self-disciplined are taking all the necessary steps to make perfectly sure their battery inside their mech will NEVER get discharged continuously, and they are adequately aware of the battery temperature and how that translates to relative safety margins. So yeah, .28 ohms instead of .14 would be safer, BUT... on a single battery mech a .28 ohms build can hardly be called high wattage. (From time to time I actually even vape at .18 ohms on a series mech, but anyway.)

 

[dripster]

How, exactly, were you showing us the danger?

Your original post begins by stating that you wanted to find out if tenth-ohm coils at 90+ watts and massive coils are the best flavor experience. It did not say anywhere that your interest or intent was in showing how dangerous it is -- and your "results" in that post do not mention danger either, just some improvement in flavor at the cost of battery and juice consumption.

I guess I'm just confused.

I think you might be on to something.

 

[dripster]

Find & use the build gives you the flavor that YOU want, and don't worry about all the nonsense.
Who cares if an "8 coil build" gives more flavor than a clapton!
You can search for "something better" until hell freezes over .... but why?!?

Because it's actually more fun than reading, also until hell freezes over, presumptous comments from people who try to insinuate, desperately it would seem, flavor chasing high wattage DL on advanced coil builds is the mere equivalent of "extolling of exotics by mostly young people"? Does the word "chasing" in "flavor chasing" mean anything?

example:
An A1 30ga 1.8 ohm single coil produces the flavor that "I" want from the atomizer of "MY" choice (A7 mini) at 8 watts, and I don't care what satisfies someone else.

add:
OH-and that's a 2.2 amp draw on the 20 amp battery in my mechanical mod.

Similarly, I don't care what DOESN'T satisfy someone else, but that isn't what this whole thread is still going on about. Presumptousness is (and unfortunately it's still happening right here on "fact based ecf" because some people on here are so busy being "fact based", they are forgetting the "fact" flavor chasing is actually a hobby).

 

[dripster]

Look at it this way:
Something better can not be defined (because it's subjective)
so all that can be found is "something different"

Are you trying to tell me that, if I like one thing better when compared to another thing, I can't define it as such?

 

[dripster]

This thread reminded me that happiness is relative and that I don't need to try out every possibility to see if I'd be happier.

My wife is glad about that.

Nobody is talking about trying EVERY possibility.

If you never want to try ANY possibility, how did you even manage to get married anyway in the first place, huh?

 

[dripster]

That was it. He wasn’t the only individual though. I’d fielded 3 or 4 in the last few days.
. Exactly! The point was to simulate a mech without actually using one. I’m not going to put a super subohm mech in my face thankyouverymuch

There’s a pic in the thread. It’s much nicer than mine, which is decidedly ugly and half assed looking.
The pic looks like a standard double coil until you count the wraps.

Seeing as you aren't going to try super sub ohm on a mech, could you and several others like you please stop trying to pretend you know something about the flavor that can be had from super sub ohm on a mech? Or is this just too much to ask from "fact based" ecf members?

 

[dripster]

Yup. The idea I think is while the metal weight and ohms are the the same the surface area is larger. Someone later in the thread described the method necessary to make them. It involves doing the hot spot checking using a ceremic rod to support the coils. This is why I went spaced on mine. I couldn’t figure out a way to do it without one.

Yuppers. Ceramic Sticks by Coil Master are what I use to dry fire more delicate coil builds such as my stapled helix coil build that I posted a pic of earlier, an idea that was suggested quite some time ago by the original creator/inventor of this particular coil type; she's a woman who goes by the name of wiretheory on instagram.

 

[dripster]

I don’t disagree with that. The issue is people doing it are going to die. That in itself makes it worthwhile, but aside from that, then dying also makes great negative press for BT to use. I didn’t have proof that both things were true though I was saying them anyway like a bunch of other people and even if they had proof I didn’t so I went to go get some. By not proving both points completely I sorta burned myself. Hence the thread title.

Mech mods don't kill people. People do.

 

[dripster]

My point was that in special circumstances slower can be better. And yes, they didn’t. It was security though obscurity, sort of. BSD can run on verrry old machines, but, at least at the time was simultaneously a totally modern OS. Because the tools to crack a modern OS also assumed a minimum processor speed because who the hell can run anything on something that slow, they failed.
And I believe it did happen. The story is even older than vaping though. Iirc top end boxes were like 133mhz or something at the time.

If you want a different example, slower is also bigger with computers and occasionally those vastly larger pathways can have advantages. Like perhaps in space. Not sure about that though. It’s a weaker example.

Slower posting page after page of BS on here sounds like it could be a thing. Sorry for all my slow replies... I've been busy super sub ohming on my mech mods.

 

[dripster]

because people are people but physics happens anyway. I thought my 0.10 build would stay at 0.10. It didn’t. Might make me an ignorant builder but that happens too. I also couldn’t make a chem lab experiment work to save my life in college but my dad did the stuff for a living. Safety margins are good.

Point. I forgot that about SS.

You getting that high wattage flavor improvement though? How much?

Yes, it happens that you might be an ignorant builder. It happens a lot actually, as a Ni80 aliens coil build that's visibly flawless doesn't short circuit on itself just like that; the alien wrap wire prevents that from happening, just like the normal wrap wire of a simple clapton also prevents it from happening.

 

[bombastinator]

I wasn't talking about the double stapled alien left handed cross stitched stuff nor about anything that even remotely resembles it. Those are for people who are building art that they're going to take incredible macro-zoomed focus-stacked photoshop-enhanced pictures of, and that you can find on instagram with your eyes closed. The vast majority of those don't even vape well.

Yet basically everyone who builds one claims they are “fantastic”. You may want to argue this point with a couple people who have made such statements in this thread

They are designed typically for art and aesthetics, usually not much more than that, albeit I'm not in any way trying to knock on people who love art and aesthetics, nor am claiming this particular side of the medal contains zero flavor performance upgrades, as claiming that would be untrue.

But that’s what you just did. Not that I disagree with you personally. Myself I can barely find a positive difference between straight and simple Clapton wire. It is so far as I can tell, something of a performance trade off. The more extra non heat metal the larger the effective surface area ratio and the slower the heat/coil. In my experience it is fairly close to a zero sum game as long as you are willing to ignore time/money spent messing with it. If you do though it’s possible to come out behind. Ignoring such things is a fair thing to do for a hobby of course. People do hobbies because they find them fun. I for example like to play video games, and on occasion knit, and read not-very-well-done Sci-Fi which I will happily admit are, with the possible exception of knitting, are all notably less useful than exotic coil building.

That said, my own personal first-hand experience has taught me that, between advanced FUNCTIONAL coil building and impressive variations of art, there exists a grey zone in the middle where non-subtle flavor performance upgrades can be found by careful exploration. (Careful, i.e. by taking other factors properly into account, like, airflow adjustment and draw strength vs coil positioning, the wicking, the choice of juices, etc. etc..)

My goodness that’s a lot of work. Not that you should stop doing it on my account, but I contend that I find these variations you describe are, to me at least, at best subtle

On a regulated mod, try a pair of everyday normal handbuilt 3-core alien coils that are 28g Ni80 for the core wires, 38g (or 36g if you can't find a 38g, it doesn't make an enormous difference) Ni80 for the alien wrap wire, 6.5 wraps, 3mm ID. Dual coil.

I personally find the phrase “everyday normal handbuilt 3 core alien” to be a contradiction in terms. Everyday for you maybe, since coil building seems to be your hobby. Anything more complicated than a straight or twist wire I’m going to have to buy as it exceeds my personal tolerance for time spent per coil. Yours is clearly different.

Around 100 watts looks to be the starting point with this particular build. If you have a mod that can support ArcticFox firmware and a PC that can run NFE Tools, then I recommend setting the Preheat Type to 'Curve' and selecting a Power Curve, and editing the Power Curve in NFE Tools by going into the Power Curve Editor window.

There, you can adjust the Time Scale to zoom in on the timeline, which is the horizontal axis of the graphical function that is shown there. Next, you can create your own custom power curve to boost the ramp up speed of your coil build a tad if that's what you like, using time offsets as seconds and power output levels as percentages that are relative to the wattage you set on the mod. The mod will conveniently automatically convert these percentages to wattages, on-the-fly so you don't have to re-adjust them each time when you change the wattage on the mod up or down. (Mods that can do this and that can sustain high wattage vaping pretty well are these days costing south of $40.)

as stated non collectively, I have two type of ageis mods and two types of DNA C mods. All of them have hand adjustable power curves though they use different GUIs from arctic fox apparently. I have not messed with the EVOLV software, but the ageis power curve stuff, specifically TCR and VPC modes need to be adjusted individually for each coil or coil set, and need to be readjusted as that coil set ages. It is not a set-it-and-forget-it proposition. I’m not saying you don’t or shouldn’t enjoy such things though, or even extol them to others.

On a single battery mech mod, I use a pair of handbuilt 3-core alien coils that are 27g Ni80 for the cores, 36g for the alien wrap wire, 4.5 wraps, 2.5mm ID. Dual coil = 0.11 ohms so needless to say I can't recommend this to anyone, as there are added risks involved and I can't guarantee other people's relative safety when there might be unknown factors at play that can seriously affect the safety.

OK. Here’s where I start to have a problem.
1. You just did recommend them even if you then immediately took that recommendation back again.
2. “I translate this statement as “I want to talk you into potentially hurting yourself, I just don’t want to be considered culpable for doing it”

(Even, if these other people in question are already familiar with battery safety and specifically the part of battery safety that applies to using a mech mod.)

So basically no one at all then since that avoids even the vape educated and safety conscious. According to you it’s flat out dangerous. Period.

To me, personally, this is another (very) noticeable flavor upgrade when compared to using a regulated mod, but that's me

oh I noticed it too, though I find “very noticeable” to be a bit of a stretch. My experience was about a 10% flavor bump and a flavor change. Definitely not an “I would be willing to risk severe injury or death to experience” level of improvement, but it was there alright. That’s what the OP was about.

Finally, safety is all about many different shades of grey.

I agree that safety is a continuum. Different levels of risk are acceptable to different people. Sounds like you know how dangerous what you’re doing is.

Just because you can't do it with a level of safety that you yourself can find acceptable,

but I just did. That was the point of the OP. It was just a higher level of safety than you choose. That’s fine, but safety level is objective. The raw risk doesn’t change merely your personal level of acceptance of it. You choose to engage in behavior with a higher than average level of inherent risk. We all did at one point or we wouldn’t have wound up losing the addiction lottery and finding ourselves smokers who were unable to easily quit in the first place. Furthermore, we all chose to vary that risk level downwards (from near 100% since we basically all had trouble quitting and were staring really unpleasant and potentially lethal diseases straight in the face) or we wouldn’t have switched to vaping. Don’t claim that the raw risk isn’t there though. It’s unethical.

doesn't mean everyone else can't

change that “can’t” to “won’t” and I would agree with you.

and, there is a reason why this type of coil building is called ADVANCED coil building so if you are still a newbie and/or you simply don't trust yourself about the safety, then clearly, this is not going to be for you.

No. this is why it’s called relatively dangerous hobbiest coil building. Advanced is different. Advanced implies a level of experience and complication. That is definitely there, but it’s different from risk level.

That is, at least not yet.

I personally find my level of risk acceptance going down rather than up over time. I find the insinuation that I may become “good enough as I grow up” to be an invitation to make that is dangerous to others. That I have a serious problem with.

There is a learning curve, but it most certainly isn't rocket surgery.

No it isn’t. The whole “rocket surgery” term invokes skills that are so difficult a lot of people actually cannot attain them at all. In my personal experience that includes quitting smoking cold turkey. We all failed at that one by definition of the fact that we are here

IMO everyone should be free to decide for theirselves how they choose to vape.

and here we differ a bit. If you blow your face off with your mech you hurt yourself a lot, but you also hurt others in smaller and more variable ways. Hurt yourself all you want. It’s the second part I have an issue with

This doesn't apply to battery safety alone. If you want to be 100% safe, then stay away from vaping altogether.

I fully agree, unless of course the only other option is smoking, as it is for most all of us. If you want to be 100% safe you have to stay away from life altogether. Nothing is 100% safe. Life is risk return management. Losing the sight picture on that one tends to turn people into agoraphobes or corpses. Being an an agoraphobe is reputed to really suck. So does being a corpse.

 

[bombastinator]

The point of the excercise was to test this. By testing something else instead.

Exactly. It was a model. That’s generally how science works. Are you contending that the model was insuffiently accurate for purpose? That’s a possibly fair contention.

 

[bombastinator]

Thinner wire doesn't necessarily always result in higher resistance, as you can work your way around that by laying multiple core wire strands in parallel before fusing them together with the wrap wire.

Further, none of my advanced coil builds around 0.1 ohm fluctuate by more than just a few percent because my builds are stable. If a 0.1 ohm build drops to 0.07 ohms, that's your proof that your build is rubbish.

Possibly. It could also be proof of several other things too. Possibly the fallibility of your understanding of vaping metals physics or the quality of portable ohm meters, or even the fallibility of us hairless apes in general. to do everything exactly right every single time without fail ever is objectively not possible. There are degrees of failure though. That’s why redundancies and safety margins were invented.

 

[bombastinator]

I'm using a Sifu B-Tab by UD to measure the resistance. Comparing several Sifu B-Tabs to a plethora of different DNA 250 mods, all of which were from reputable brands, revealed the Sifu B-Tab reports a 0.11 ohms atomizer/coil resistance as 0.12 ohms, reliably consistently so, all you have to do is just subtract 0.01 from the Sifu B-Tab's readout and then it will be accurate, tested and verified tested correct.

No. All it does is say that the variance between those particular two devices is currently one one hundredth of an ohm. Neither one could be particularly accurate. It does say though that the accuracy of portable ohm meters may possibly be greater than the .04 ohm I have been given to understand is correct.

 

[bombastinator]

Yes, it happens that you might be an ignorant builder. It happens a lot actually, as a Ni80 aliens coil build that's visibly flawless doesn't short circuit on itself just like that; the alien wrap wire prevents that from happening, just like the normal wrap wire of a simple clapton also prevents it from happening.

Everyone is ignorant about different things. And different parts of things. I would say our ignorance is different. And that you don’t like it very much.

 

[bombastinator]

Is this it?

No they didn’t sell those. I was lucky again I guess.

 

[bombastinator]

If we can assume that YOUR primary goal is to vaporize liquid and not to heat up big (define "big"?) chunks of metal. Then no, reducing the mass your coil has does not necessarily help to improve the efficiency, as reducing the coil mass all the way down to zero mass is going to give you zero efficiency.

A zero times zero argument. Graphs are all calculus though where X approaches zero but never reaches it.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Then maybe read the thread you have this picture taken from? He shows that thinner wire builds are more efficient then thick wire builds. That was the whole point of this thread. The total surface area stays pretty much the same if you use the same diameter and coil lengths, no matter what gauge you use. However the mass will be very different. Using 24G instead of triple 30G will double the mass of your coil; the 30G will produce more vapor when fired at the same power and will run cooler.
So, no, 3x30G does not give the same results as using 1x24G.

The initial thread on Radiator coils was not posted when I made that response - which will admit I did not fully think it through. But Boden thread does not make sense.

First, the surface area of a coil cannot be calculated by the width of the coil alone. The thickness of the wire also plays into effect. If a 4mm ID was used and 8.4mm was our target width, a coil using 25awg wire would have a larger surface area than one utilizing 30awg wire. This difference can be significant.

Looking at his chart, going from left to right - is the first column a single 30 awg wire wrapped around a 4mm ID until he achieved a coil of 8.4mm in width?

What I also find confusing is when mass increases, the temperature of the coil decreases should power remain the same. However, his chart says differently.

Non the less, I do agree that one can build a more efficient coil, for lack of better terminology, by creatively utilizing multiple higher gauge wire vs a single lower gauge wire. However, it is not an apples to apples comparison and there is always a compromise.

 

[bombastinator]

You don't necessarily need a fat LiPo and a series deck to be able to justify going for a nice PWM, though. Below is pic of one of my single coil builds in the Goon 1.5, that's a 0.24 ohms build, and that I currently am vaping on one of my Surric X-Vault mods (dual 18650 battery PWM). I get decent battery life with a pair of Sony VTC5D (Vapcell black 25A 2800mAh) batteries in this setup, juice conspumption is still within reasonable limits also IMO, and, YES FLAVOR.

View attachment 800487

That wasn’t a macro exposure was it?

 

[bombastinator]

Damn, I didnt think this through.
Trying to wrap some zero mass coils; brb with test results...

There are particle physicists at the U who may be able to help. Not all of them will like it though. There is something of an argument about it I understand.