The Diketone free tested vendors list

[MagnusEunson]

Speaking of five pawns - somewhere in this thread we talked about the idea that they were introducing PD as an alternative to PG.

I wanted to take a quick gander and found this reddit thread .. interesting subtext to it.

The TL;DR version:

• five pawns refers to the fact PD is EcoCert approved - although they don't claim to use THE PD that is EcoCert approved
• The only one in the US that is EcoCert approved is licensed only through Dupont
• Dupont responded to various inquiries it was not for use in nicquids and they would investigate the matter

And Five Pawns is a bit late on their announcement that they'd have the PD offering by summer - which they also refer to on their testing page suggesting it has diketones implications as well.

I wonder what happened ..

-Mags

 

[AngiBe]

Anyone know if MOV also tested for Acetoin? I see their results, which is awesome, but only DA/AP.

Also been reading some vendors are swapping to flavors with butyric acid?!? I know searching for the cleanest ejuice can be a ticking time bomb, but dang! worried some of these vendors are gonna swap one crap chemical for another, but say "hey, we tested. DA/AP Free like you guys wanted"

 

[Mazinny]

Anyone know if MOV also tested for Acetoin? I see their results, which is awesome, but only DA/AP.

Also been reading some vendors are swapping to flavors with butyric acid?!? I know searching for the cleanest ejuice can be a ticking time bomb, but dang! worried some of these vendors are gonna swap one crap chemical for another, but say "hey, we tested. DA/AP Free like you guys wanted"

Angie,

As far as i know there is no current evidence acetoin and butyric acid may cause the type of cell damage diketones do, but if you are concerned about acetoin and butyric acid, i would recommend staying away from any custard, cream, yoghurt or milk based eliquids period, DA/AP testing or not. This is what Dr. Kurt Kistler ( a phd chemist and ECF'er ) said in response to a question from a member who implied butyric acid may not be any safer than DA/AP :

If you are referring to butyric acid, it is an irritant, which is largely person- and dose-dependent. Most sources talking about the problems it causes are referring to the pure compound. But as far as we know it is not TOXIC at the levels we use, nor does it kill lung tissue like diacetyl. It might cause irritation, mucus, depending on the person and amount present. I think that amount is generally very low in creams, however, since it takes very little to start tasting like vomit. But I am not aware of any studies that show it is damaging to the lungs at the levels we would be using it at. Chemically is it similar to acetic acid, vinegar, which is often used in liquids.

But our knowledge about AP is actually quite recent. People thought since it was not diacetyl, it must be much safer, like there is some evil incarnate to the diacetyl molecule. But it was found in recent rats studies that it is in fact as toxic as diacetyl, due to its similar chemical nature and structure.

Flavors are a big uncertainty, so blanket "this is perfectly safe" statements are not appropriate without more long term lung tissue studies with vapor. And we don't have a lot of long term data even anecdotally, other than some flavors causing mucus or irritation. So its a gamble, but I think the majority of flavor compounds out there are probably ok. That said, I do advocate using minimal flavors or vape unflavored, which I do most of the time. As we head into deeper and deeper lung penetration through very high wattage, we may start seeing more problems...which may not be toxicity problems, but irritation problems. If a flavor makes me cough a lot or causes a lot of mucus, I avoid it. Cinnamaldehyde (hot cinnamon) is a strong irritant, and has been known to cause throats to close up...but some have no issues at all with it. It does have a toxicity associated with it, but only in very high concentrations. SOMETHING in Capellas Milk Chocolate Toffee, maybe DA!, causes me to cough uncontrollably, so I avoid it.

Dr F has done some cytotoxicity studies on a limited number of flavored e-liquids, and most were not cytotoxic. Naturally extracted coffee did have low toxicity. None were even remotely as toxic as cigarette smoke.

And as I said, flavors have a range of thermal stabilities and some can easily decompose on a coil, which creates its own set of toxins, even if the flavor compound itself is benign. Any flavor that "gunks up" a coil is decomposing. So if a vape starts to taste "off", fix it, as it is probably decomposition starting from poor wicking to the coil. If a flavor causes any irritation problems for you, avoid it.

 

[AngiBe]

@Mazinny , thank you!!!! Seems like you're always helping me with something That makes me feel better and I am steering clear of those types. It's hard but trying. And of course MOVs Way of the Dragon and Creme de la Creama series was catching my attention.

 

[MagnusEunson]

@Mazinny , thank you!!!! Seems like you're always helping me with something That makes me feel better and I am steering clear of those types. It's hard but trying. And of course MOVs Way of the Dragon and Creme de la Creama series was catching my attention.

There IS evidence butyric acid can amplify the damage of the others though .. -Mags

 

[Nimaz]

DAP Tested Vendors List - Google Sheets[/QUOTE]

Thank you for putting this list together. Much needed. I somehow gave up on commercial ejuices and now DIY with DX flavor concentrates, which is a decent option but limited choices though.

 

[Thundernoggin]

Speaking of Five Pawns - somewhere in this thread we talked about the idea that they were introducing PD as an alternative to PG.

I wanted to take a quick gander and found this reddit thread .. interesting subtext to it.

The TL;DR version:

• Five Pawns refers to the fact PD is EcoCert approved - although they don't claim to use THE PD that is EcoCert approved
• The only one in the US that is EcoCert approved is licensed only through Dupont
• Dupont responded to various inquiries it was not for use in nicquids and they would investigate the matter

And Five Pawns is a bit late on their announcement that they'd have the PD offering by summer - which they also refer to on their testing page suggesting it has diketones implications as well.

I wonder what happened ..

-Mags

Thanks for this. Turned out to be an interesting read.

 

[Dizzo]

I would like to apologize to everyone for what an awful job I have done on keeping up with this. I think if I could do it over, Google sheets wouldn't have been used.... I'm just making excuses lol
Mazziny now has the ability to edit the list.

 

[Gauntlgrym]

np dizzo. life happens.

ok, so this is for Mazziny.

looks like all the vendors that i know of that need to be added are:
TBD liquids
Bombies
Mr Good Vape
Goodlife vapor
Eliquidy by Eciggity
Wet Stache
Kings Crest
Honest Vapor
Baker White

i think that's all. hopefully i didn't miss any.

 

[AngiBe]

Great to see new vendors! Thanks for adding

 

[kkay59]

That link no longer works. I don't know about using PD. I would have to hear more about it. I am leery at this point, of trying it.

Speaking of Five Pawns - somewhere in this thread we talked about the idea that they were introducing PD as an alternative to PG.

 

[MagnusEunson]

That link no longer works. I don't know about using PD. I would have to hear more about it. I am leery at this point, of trying it.

Still work for me - just have to go through the age check and it comes right up.

Although after the reddit thread, I'm also leary. -Mags

 

[kkay59]

Well after your comment, I tried it again. This time it worked. Strange. Well, I will have to see after it has been tried and tested.

Still work for me - just have to go through the age check and it comes right up.

Although after the reddit thread, I'm also leary. -Mags

 

[morningdew]

Two from the uk who I believe have test results on their websites.... T- juice and halcyon haze. Manabush also publish results, some are clean...results on their website.

Both red vape and house of liquid, as well as their lab - concept labs, have assured me via email they test for diketones and other chemicals including acetoin. As yet neither have posted results on their websites. The lab did say given my interest they would get their chemist to send on results, I never followed this up. Same with vaponaute from France.

Edit vaponaute did mention one of their juices at the time contained small quantities of ap and they were working on re formulating it.

 

[Gauntlgrym]

anyone ever gonna update the spreadsheet? dino or mazinny?

 

[Racehorse]

anyone ever gonna update the spreadsheet? dino or mazinny?

Maybe pick 1st day of every month to update the "formal" list.....

(Life is pretty busy for most people. )

Listing them informally here before they make it to the google doc will be good enough til that happens.

coming from a time when the presence of dap was unknown or not even considered conversation-worthy, the rush to publish results seems sorta disingenuine to me sometimes.,,,,except for those companies who were "early adopters" like MOV and who set out to remove diketones from their products even before Dr. F's testing came out.

 

[AngiBe]

i keep the list on my phone and iPad and check the vendors out regularly. And updated list would be awesome

ETA.. I agree @Racehorse and it's sad. I wish the momentum would keep going and these vendors wake up. MOV is having a nice Halloween sale. I'm jumping on it!! Can't wait to try even more flavors from them.

 

[GameDesigner]

Thanks to this thread I've switched to all MOV. Shame to stop shopping with Ahlusion but until they post third party lab reports MOV it is for me. The Njoy DragonScape is nice, too.

 

[Dizzo]

Yup, time is the issue. If I could get pms with names and links it would be ALOT easier. Every time I get started going through the thread with the intention of an update I get called away.

 

[Mazinny]

I spent Some time with Google spreadsheets about ten days ago when Dizzo gave me access, but couldn't figure it out unfortunately and could not spend more time. I will collate all the vendors that aren't on the master sheet and the links later today and post it here, but can't guarantee that it will be added to the spreadsheet any time soon. I will figure Google spreadsheets at some point, but don't know when. Sorry !