Trust, Reputation, and Proof

[zoiDman]

I am going to go out on a limb here, as I am really not supposed to post in this area Since I am a registered supplier,so mods please forgive me,and move or delete as needed.

Boletus, to answer your question some what. When FDA regs do come down, and this is only my opinion, since you seem to be more versed in this than me, is that when it does, it will still NOT be A stipulation that I or others will have to show the general public anything of which you ask for.

If I consider as many of us do, ingredients to be part of a trade secret then I in fact would only have to show governmental agencies and not the general public. Paper work and proper testing is what they will be looking for. So i think that it will be up to each individual/company to decide for him or herself what they put out into public domain.

I hope this helps.

I Know you can't engage in Certain Types of Discussions in Certain Areas because of your Supplier Status.

But I Don't think people in This Thread are Looking for Disclosure of Ingredients such as Flavorings or Sweeteners. As they are Quality and Purity Assurances of the 3 Base Constituents that make up an e-liquid.

Nicotine Base
Added PG
Added VG

 

[k3vin]

I agree Zoid, but a FULL disclosure of anything in this industry to the public/ possible rivals is almost impossible in today's vaping industrial climate.

 

[Boletus]

I am going to go out on a limb here, as I am really not supposed to post in this area Since I am a registered supplier,so mods please forgive me,and move or delete as needed.

Boletus, to answer your question some what. When FDA regs do come down, and this is only my opinion, since you seem to be more versed in this than me, is that when it does, it will still NOT be A stipulation that I or others will have to show the general public anything of which you ask for.

If I consider as many of us do, ingredients to be part of a trade secret then I in fact would only have to show governmental agencies and not the general public. Paper work and proper testing is what they will be looking for. So i think that it will be up to each individual/company to decide for him or herself what they put out into public domain.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for the informative response, it is helpful. I also expect that you will be allowed to protect your trade secrets, and that you won't be required to provide full chemical analyses of your products to your customers. But I also expect that you will be required to obtain independent verification regarding the safety of your products and provide it to the FDA or similar agency, just like people that sell milk must do. And as I have noted above, I don't have a problem not knowing the name and amount of every single chemical contained in my e-juice.

My only real beef is with people who tell me something is proof, when it is not, and when important parts of an analytical report are deliberately omitted leaving people to wonder where the info comes from. That said, if I do find a vendor that is willing to provide full independent analytical reports (including the lab's credentials) for even just the nicotine in their juice, that is who I will buy from.

Thanks again for sticking your neck out to contribute to the discussion.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree Zoid, but a FULL disclosure of anything in this industry to the public/ possible rivals is almost impossible in today's vaping industrial climate.

Full and Complete Disclosure? No.

Very, Very, Very Few Companies are Required or Voluntarily comply with Full Disclose

But I'm not sure how Damaging it Would be to your Company to Disclose that you Do Independent Testing via an Outside Certified Laboratory? And then Publish those Certs/Reports.

In Fact, you Might Find, that it Actually Enhances your Sales.

 

[zoiDman]

...

My only real beef is with people who tell me something is proof, when it is not, and when important parts of an analytical report are deliberately omitted leaving people to wonder where the info comes from. ...

You have Made Comments like this Before.

OK... Who are these People who are Omitted Information and What did they say when you Contacted them with your Questions?

 

[Boletus]

I agree Zoid, but a FULL disclosure of anything in this industry to the public/ possible rivals is almost impossible in today's vaping industrial climate.

Which is one reason why it is inevitable, like it or not, that the government will start making life difficult in the not-to-distant future. I expect that your company is already preparing for the changes, and like the rest of us, is hoping for the best in the meantime.

 

[Boletus]

You have Made Comments like this Before.

OK... Who are these People who are Omitted Information and What did they say when you Contacted them with your Questions?

I have not contacted anyone yet, I am merely evaluating their statements and documentation at face value at this point. The footwork comes next. I did provide some examples of "assurances" that seemed lacking in substance, see comment #14. Although I don't really want to single out a vendor whose products are just fine, I find this one a particularly egregious example:
Pure Nicotine Chemical Analysis

Because it states, "CERTIFICATION OF ANALYSIS," and "ANALYSIS SERVICES PERFORMED FOR: RTS Vapes - a Division of RTS Leasing, LLC, USA." Where is the certification? Where is the name of the lab? Where are the analytical methods that were used?

 

[zoiDman]

I have not contacted anyone yet, I am merely evaluating their statements and documentation at face value at this point. The footwork comes next. I did provide some examples of "assurances" that seemed lacking in substance, see comment #14. Although I don't really want to single out a vendor whose products are just fine, I find this one a particularly egregious example:
Pure Nicotine Chemical Analysis

Because it states, "CERTIFICATION OF ANALYSIS," and "ANALYSIS SERVICES PERFORMED FOR: RTS Vapes - a Division of RTS Leasing, LLC, USA." Where is the certification? Where is the name of the lab? Where are the analytical methods that were used?

Well then Isn't the Simple Answer to just Not Buy from This Company? Or Any Other Company that you Do Not feel discloses enough Information.

 

[Boletus]

And everybody, please understand, I did not mean for this thread to be a witch hunt or scare anyone off vaping. Really, all I wanted was an answer to these two questions from the OP: "...has anyone found a source that provides verifiable proof of their purity and quality claims? Failing that, who do you believe, and why?" They are just questions.

But then it somehow became a question of why should I want that, and why isn't what's already out there good enough for my admittedly persnickety self? So I try to explain myself, which just seems to make some folks unhappy or even angry. And now it is evolving into a question of what is going to be enough to satisfy the FDA, who I have actually been called a shill for.

I'm just trying to find the best vape, just like everyone else in this subforum, but I guess my way of going about it is problematic. But you know what? Similar conversations should be conducted by everyone that cares about the industry, so I am not sorry at all about engaging in it. I am not an FDA shill, I am a vaper that is terrified of being pushed back into smoking. Vaping is the only truly viable alternative I have found, and I want to keep my ability to do it.

 

[Boletus]

Well then Isn't the Simple Answer to just Not Buy from This Company? Or Any Other Company that you Do Not feel discloses enough Information.

Yes, but the conversation has turned into much more than that, for better or worse. See comment #69.

 

[ENAUD]

Why not just go the DIY route? Get your nic, PG and VG, and have a lab you know and trust test them with a GC/MS. Nude nic provides their own GC/MS spec sheet for their nic, I don't think we will see independent cert. info on any vendor juice anytime in the near future. And then there are the flavorings! How far down the rabbit hole to go? The FDA may very well bridge these areas in the future, but even then I would not expect full disclosure.

 

[OVO Kyle]

Because it states, "CERTIFICATION OF ANALYSIS," and "ANALYSIS SERVICES PERFORMED FOR: RTS Vapes - a Division of RTS Leasing, LLC, USA." Where is the certification? Where is the name of the lab? Where are the analytical methods that were used?

I have been reading through this thread, and I just wanted to add my opinion. I completely agree with you. I currently work in Finance and if i was handed Financial Records for a company and it read "Financial Audit Services Performed For:_______" but never said "Financial Audit Services performed by:_____" or who the Auditors were, I would also be slightly irritated. It is a good discussion to have!

The lab results I routinely review have nothing to so with consumer products, I work in environmental remediation of toxic chemicals. Maybe that's where some of my paranoia/persnickety-ness comes from.

I recently watched a VICE on HBO segment about COREXIT (which you may or may not be familiar with) which was used to 'clean up' the crude oil on the surface of the water and when workers in Alaska and the Gulf were exposed they ended up with serious respiratory health effects. In no way am I comparing vaping and corexit, I love vaping and will help tobacco not kill me

 

[Boletus]

And still no one has answered the original question: Who do you believe, and why? Is it really that awful of a thing to ask?

 

[zoiDman]

And still no one has answered the original question: Who do you believe, and why? Is it really that awful of a thing to ask?

Here are My Two Answers:

No. I have Never Seen or Heard of a Nicotine Supplier or Flavored e-Liquid Vendor who has a Level of Disclosure which you are Seeking.

---

Wizard Labs and Xtreme Vaping. My reasons for Believing that they provide Quality Nicotine base are Purely Anecdotal.

 

[Boletus]

Why not just go the DIY route? Get your nic, PG and VG, and have a lab you know and trust test them with a GC/MS. Nude nic provides their own GC/MS spec sheet for their nic, I don't think we will see independent cert. info on any vendor juice anytime in the near future. And then there are the flavorings! How far down the rabbit hole to go? The FDA may very well bridge these areas in the future, but even then I would not expect full disclosure.

Actually, I am waiting for my first DIY order from Nude, placed around the same time I started this thread. Why Nude? Because they put their own name on their lab results. But I did not want to be singling anyone out, one way or the other. I can't afford a full GC/MS analysis, and so I was seeking advice and other perspectives when I started this thread.

 

[Boletus]

Here are My Two Answers:

No. I have Never Seen or Heard of a Nicotine Supplier or Flavored e-Liquid Vendor who has a Level of Disclosure which you are Seeking.

---

Wizard Labs and Xtreme Vaping. My reasons for Believing that they provide Quality Nicotine base are Purely Anecdotal.

Thanks zoiDman. If you care to share any anecdotal reasons, I would be interested, and I promise I will not pick them apart or pass any judgement. But even if you don't want to, thanks again for actual answers.

 

[Boletus]

And then there are the flavorings! How far down the rabbit hole to go?

Actually, I have been following the threads about making homemade flavorings from simple common ingredients (i.e. stuff you can get at the grocery store or forage in the wild) with keen interest. I wish I liked menthol, because i have a bunch of mint in my herb garden right now.

 

[Boletus]

I recently watched a VICE on HBO segment about COREXIT (which you may or may not be familiar with) which was used to 'clean up' the crude oil on the surface of the water and when workers in Alaska and the Gulf were exposed they ended up with serious respiratory health effects. In no way am I comparing vaping and corexit, I love vaping and will help tobacco not kill me

I listened to a news story about that stuff, and the efforts to prevent people from being compensated for the harm they incurred. Truly scary story, even for someone that works in toxic chemicals.

 

[zoiDman]

Thanks zoiDman. If you care to share any anecdotal reasons, I would be interested, and I promise I will not pick them apart or pass any judgement. But even if you don't want to, thanks again for actual answers.

LOL

I have sat in on some Conversations between Xtreme Vaping (Randy?) and Kurt regarding Nicotine Testing and Purity Assessments in the Past. I get the Feeling that Xtreme Vaping has at Least a Qualified Chemist on there staff. The Same goes for Wizard Labs.

Both have Been around for awhile. And I have Used Both and found their e-Liquids to be Very Clean Tasting.

But you Can't Taste Lead or Cadmium in levels that still can Harm you. So my Opinion was Qualified as Anecdotal.

BTW - I have an Un-Opened 1L Container of 100mg that I received from Heartland Vapes a couple of Days ago. But of course, it is Un Tasted.

I have Also heard some Very Good things about Vapers Tek.

 

[ENAUD]

Actually, I am waiting for my first DIY order from Nude, placed around the same time I started this thread. Why Nude? Because they put their own name on their lab results. But I did not want to be singling anyone out, one way or the other. I can't afford a full GC/MS analysis, and so I was seeking advice and other perspectives when I started this thread.

I understand. And good on you for taking the initiative to DIY. At least pursuing that route, you can ease your mind a bit by choosing what ingredients to use, and who they are purchased from. And in the case of flavorings, there are vendors who do state as to whether there particular flavorings are diecetyl and or acetoin free, if those particular chemicals are of any concern to you.