Trust, Reputation, and Proof

[Panorama911]

You are asking for a certified lab and in order to "certify" there must be well documented standards to follow. These standards are usually set by the FDA or any other agency relevant to said industry. In the E liquid industry it has not even been tested enough to even set a standard to certify with so how can a certified lab regardless of it s equipment, procedures/practices make any claim to a products safety, purity etc?

To be certified, the certification comes from either a government department related to said area of product or a private agency that deals exclusively to the said area, i.e the American Diabetes Association can set guidelines and standards in regard to diabetic care and pass them along to other related businesses to follow, they have doctors, nurses, scientists and other related specialists setting the guidelines and standards based on years of research and testing.

For E liquids, there are no doctors, nurses and scientists/specialists that have enough knowledge, not to mention testing in detail to even set a single standard. So in my opinion there is no way to get an answer such as you ask.....yet....in time the FDA will have all the answers you want and then some......most you will not like and those will be just as bad as verifying a prescription medication!

This post may cause heart palpitations, mood swings, sudden rise in blood pressure, thoughts of suicide. If you experience any of these symptoms contact your Physician immediately......just a preview of what to look for in the future, be careful you will get what you ask for!

 

[zoiDman]

...

This post may cause heart palpitations, mood swings, sudden rise in blood pressure, thoughts of suicide. If you experience any of these symptoms contact your Physician immediately.....

Sound like what is Printed on the side of a Box of Chantix.

 

[patkin]

I don't get any of the info you're looking for on the loaf of bread from the grocers nor on that bag of candy or pack of gum let alone a pack of smokes. So what's the beef? Why aren't you that concerned with other ingestables? The same things I apply to anything I consume, I apply to e-juices. If you can use a contact form or email... ask about whatever concerns you. I have on pet foods. If they don't answer or not to your satisfaction, don't give em your money... pretty simple really. But it does require personal responsibility for your own personal welfare and not requiring an already too big government to do that for you.. or anyone else really. Gov't and their cronies are not only corrupt with an eye to greed and not your welfare but they royally .. well.... mess up whatever they mess with. ... why trust them? Personally, I don't trust their word on what they DO vouch for and do my own checking... so nothing would change for me. Incidentally, I'm diabetic and learned years ago not to trust AMA or ADA endorced products that investigate/certify... follow the money is the story.

 

[Panorama911]

Sound like what is Printed on the side of a Box of Chantix.

Should I have used ....../...... instead!?

 

[Boletus]

This post may cause heart palpitations, mood swings, sudden rise in blood pressure, thoughts of suicide. If you experience any of these symptoms contact your Physician immediately......just a preview of what to look for in the future, be careful you will get what you ask for!

Actually, I find my dog to be extremely helpful when that happens, and she'll settle for a pat on the head or a tummy rub, rather than sending me a bill.

Regarding certifications, a lab cannot certify whether something is safe to use or not, and as you say, there is no agency or organization that is qualified to do so for e-juice at this time. But a lab can be certified to provide results for the analyses they perform (usually at the state level here in the US), whether it's microorganisms in wastewater or benzene in groundwater. And if one is going to present analytical results provided by a lab as a "Certificate of Analysis," it is really not a certificate of anything if the name of the lab, at the very least, is not provided.

I have some mixed feelings about the FDA taking control of the market, but I am sure that it will be painful and expensive when it happens, so I appreciate your admonitions.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I have some mixed feelings about the FDA taking control of the market, but I am sure that it will be painful and expensive when it happens, ...

I think this has to be the Undisputed Winner of the Understate of the Year Award for 2014.

 

[Panorama911]

Regarding certifications, a lab cannot certify whether something is safe to use or not, and as you say, there is no agency or organization that is qualified to do so for e-juice at this time. But a lab can be certified to provide results for the analyses they perform (usually at the state level here in the US), whether it's microorganisms in wastewater or benzene in groundwater. And if one is going to present analytical results provided by a lab as a "Certificate of Analysis," it is really not a certificate of anything if the name of the lab, at the very least, is not provided.

I have some mixed feelings about the FDA taking control of the market, but I am sure that it will be painful and expensive when it happens, so I appreciate your admonitions.

No argument on that thinking. Yes there could be testing done in already known substances and such at the level you mention but isn't PG and VG and flavorings already tested for "food grade" and "safe for consumption" etc? Perhaps looking into each individual ingredients test findings for a reasonable assumption of safety and purity, the missing link is going to be is it safe for inhalation rather than for cosmetic use or consumption.

 

[zoiDman]

... the missing link is going to be is it safe for inhalation rather than for cosmetic use or consumption.

This is the Big Black Fly in the Frosting when it comes to Flavoring and Artificial Sweeteners Also.

Perhaps More So.

 

[Boletus]

No argument on that thinking. Yes there could be testing done in already known substances and such at the level you mention but isn't PG and VG and flavorings already tested for "food grade" and "safe for consumption" etc? Perhaps looking into each individual ingredients test findings for a reasonable assumption of safety and purity, the missing link is going to be is it safe for inhalation rather than for cosmetic use or consumption.

Several vendors claim that they use USP VG and PG, and where that is true, those products have been analyzed and excepted by the agency under which they are regulated (probably the FDA). But no, they have not been certified as safe for inhalation. Personally, I'm fine with that, because as we discussed, we are all treading on new ground here, and we all are convinced, for whatever reasons, that it is better than smoking.

So I expect the VG and PG, if really USP products, would not require additional analysis. But the nic and flavorings might, particularly the nic, since it is not already regulated under any other authority. My hope is that, beyond requiring products actually contain the substances the manufacturers claim, the FDA will only require them to have their products tested for absence of specific known toxins and for the strength of the nicotine that is listed on the label.

But that is wishful thinking at this point. If they do make a requirement that every ingredient is officially approved for inhalation, that will get ugly real fast. That's why it is imperative that we are all communicating with elected representatives and supporting an organization like CASAA, to limit the damage.

 

[Boletus]

This is the Big Black Fly in the Frosting when it comes to Flavoring and Artificial Sweeteners Also.

Perhaps More So.

Here's what I consider a best possible scenario: they require testing to verify nicotine strength and absence of known toxins, and then require vendors to slap a warning on the label along the lines of, "This product has not been evaluated by the FDA as safe for inhalation."

 

[zoiDman]

Here's what I consider a best possible scenario: they require testing to verify nicotine strength and absence of known toxins, and then require vendors to slap a warning on the label along the lines of, "This product has not been evaluated by the FDA as safe for inhalation."

I don't think you are going to be Able to Sell Any tobacco derived Nicotine Product, for Any Purpose, without FDA Approval.

That's Kinda what the "Deeming" is All About.

 

[Panorama911]

Keep in mind that PG has already been tested for inhalation via asthma inhalers. The only issue here is it is in minute amounts and no one "chain vapes" an inhaler in the amounts we take in. So the testing needs to be broadened to see cause and effect in larger amounts. That said, it would be safe to assume that it too is safe per the FDA.

But in large amounts all things can change but I can say that PG is metabolized rather quickly as a simple sugar is....5 minutes or so via ingestion, the speed via inhaling with direct access to the bloodstream could result in even faster to metabolize. But is it still safe is still up in the air, as for purity it must be pure enough for getting a food grade rating then again what amount is deemed safe or not.

Many questions to ponder and millions of dollars to get said answers. I know many here may balk at your reasoning of questioning, paranoid perhaps, nitpicking maybe, but the question is a good one as most all is unknown, especially long term usage, so it does pay to question what we are ingesting/inhaling. The fact no one has died, grown a third leg, went blind or coughed up a lung to this point is not proof all is safe or OK to use and pondering questions leads to answers we may find save our lives, I for certain do not want to say one day " If I only had known back then!"

 

[zoiDman]

Keep in mind that PG has already been tested for inhalation via asthma inhalers. The only issue here is it is in minute amounts and no one "chain vapes" an inhaler in the amounts we take in. So the testing needs to be broadened to see cause and effect in larger amounts. That said, it would be safe to assume that it too is safe per the FDA.

But in large amounts all things can change but I can say that PG is metabolized rather quickly as a simple sugar is....5 minutes or so via ingestion, the speed via inhaling with direct access to the bloodstream could result in even faster to metabolize. But is it still safe is still up in the air, as for purity it must be pure enough for getting a food grade rating then again what amount is deemed safe or not.

Many questions to ponder and millions of dollars to get said answers. I know many here may balk at your reasoning of questioning, paranoid perhaps, nitpicking maybe, but the question is a good one as most all is unknown, especially long term usage, so it does pay to question what we are ingesting/inhaling. The fact no one has died, grown a third leg, went blind or coughed up a lung to this point is not proof all is safe or OK to use and pondering questions leads to answers we may find save our lives, I for certain do not want to say one day " If I only had known back then!"

And this is why Most people refer to e-Cigarette use as Harm Reduction. Not Harm Elimination. But Harm Reduction.

The Concept of Dosage & Frequency is sometimes Overlooked when dealing with the Components of an e-Liquid.

Whereas I have heard Many People Argue that Food Flavorings are consider to be GRAS. I'm not sure if GRAS was applied to a Person eating Blueberry Flavored Muffins Habitually, 18 Hours a Day, 7 Days a Week, for Year After Year.

But I know Many people who use Blueberry Flavoring in their e-Liquid this way.

 

[Boletus]

I don't think you are going to be Able to Sell Any Tobacco derived Nicotine Product, for Any Purpose, without FDA Approval.

That's Kinda what the "Deeming" is All About.

We can hope, right? I mean they did take a side road around the nutritional supplement industry, and I can buy products that have not been formally approved by the FDA for the suggested uses at Walgreens, albeit with the statement to that effect on the label. But I'm afraid you are correct, while I hope you are not.

Perhaps another possibility is that the nic, PG, and VG are deemed acceptable for sale under certain circumstances, e.g. not for minors and with warnings on the label, but we will need to purchase flavorings or any other additions separately and add them ourselves. That would not be an ideal outcome at all, but it would be preferable to requiring a prescription or outright banning it, IMO.

 

[Boletus]

Whereas I have heard Many People Argue that Food Flavorings are consider to be GRAS. I'm not sure if GRAS was applied to a Person eating Blueberry Flavored Muffins Habitually, 18 Hours a Day, 7 Days a Week, for Year After Year.

But I know Many people who use Blueberry Flavoring in their e-Liquid this way.

I know a heck of a lot of people that drink alcoholic beverages almost that continuously (not that it is a good idea).

But the salient point there is that alcohol has a large industry behind it to prevent a re-institution of that prohibition, and the prohibition already has a history of failure. Since there is no real history for vaping, it is on shakier ground. I seriously do hope that some of the big players in the industry are using some of their profits to try to guide forthcoming legislation in every way they can. All we consumers can do is write, call, and email our representatives and support a trade organization like CASAA. But as we all know, it is money that talks.

 

[zoiDman]

We can hope, right? I mean they did take a side road around the nutritional supplement industry, and I can buy products that have not been formally approved by the FDA for the suggested uses at Walgreens, albeit with the statement to that effect on the label. But I'm afraid you are correct, while I hope you are not.

Perhaps another possibility is that the nic, PG, and VG are deemed acceptable for sale under certain circumstances, e.g. not for minors and with warnings on the label, but we will need to purchase flavorings or any other additions separately and add them ourselves. That would not be an ideal outcome at all, but it would be preferable to requiring a prescription or outright banning it, IMO.

It Can't go down the Prescription Route. That what the Deeming is about. And it Isn't going to be Banned. Can't Tax something that is Banned.

But it is going to be Severely Restricted/Regulated.

Have you made a FDA Submission? Or are you Planning to in the Future?

 

[Panorama911]

And this is why Most people refer to e-Cigarette use as Harm Reduction. Not Harm Elimination. But Harm Reduction.

The Concept of Dosage & Frequency is sometimes Overlooked when dealing with the Components of an e-Liquid.

Whereas I have heard Many People Argue that Food Flavorings are consider to be GRAS. I'm not sure if GRAS was applied to a Person eating Blueberry Flavored Muffins Habitually, 18 Hours a Day, 7 Days a Week, for Year After Year.

But I know Many people who use Blueberry Flavoring in their e-Liquid this way.

Well said and the other unspoken fact is the ingredients are heated to the vaporizing point making them potentially more "concentrated" raising the amount or purity/strength taken in. Pure "horse" can kill, this is one reason why it is "cut", perhaps "pure blueberry flavoring" is just as lethal! .....something to ponder

 

[Boletus]

Have you made a FDA Submission? Or are you Planning to in the Future?

I did not know that is something I can do; all of my experience is with known toxins, not consumer products. Can you point me toward guidance on that process?

 

[Panorama911]

It Can't go down the Prescription Route. That what the Deeming is about. And it Isn't going to be Banned. Can't Tax something that is Banned.

But it is going to be Severely Restricted/Regulated.

Have you made a FDA Submission? Or are you Planning to in the Future?

And they cannot tax prescription drugs either!

 

[zoiDman]

I did not know that is something I can do; all of my experience is with known toxins, not consumer products. Can you point me toward guidance on that process?

The FDA is Currently asking the Public for their Comments with Regards to Regulating Tobacco and in our case, e-Cigarettes and e-Liquids.

I would suggest that you go to the CASAA Web Site and read their Adivice with regards to making a Comment/Submission to the FDA.

CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association