Who here is not stocking up in preparation for the May 12th, 2020 Deadline?
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For about two years before I switched to vaping, I was buying cigarettes (More Red 120s) on the black market, for about half what they cost locally retail ($60+/carton). I'm so glad vaping saved me from THAT scene. Now, they want to drive folks to the black market on vaping? So NOT amused.
I have no plans to quit vaping, and certainly no plans to return to smoking cigarettes. So yeah, I'm stocking up.
If there is no actual "ban", I'll have no need to spend more on my guilty pleasure for many years to come. And even without the 'ban', prices are likely to rise (could be substantially), so I don't see any downside to stacking.
I spent several years before this current stacking endeavor without spending much of anything, riding on what I had in hand. It's a good thing being content with hardware that's years behind the cutting edge, and mixing your own. Gotta get that nic base warehoused.
This topic has come up in a few places. I don't know of a single person who's stocking up with the intent to be a black market profiteer. Most people stocking up for themselves, and a few are getting some stuff with the intent of giving to to relatives or close friends should the need arise. People are stocking up because they do not wish to have to deal with a black market, especially for consumables like juice or nic base.
I'm in Europe, but the vast majority of juices I vape are premium juices imported from the U.S., and the vast majority of hardware I like are expensive high end (and some mid-priced entry-level high end) mech mods and RDAs from U.S. brands so, part because I saw this whole thing coming from (literally) thousands of miles away, by the time they had decided to move the deadline to 2020, I had already stocked up on hardware for at least 2,020 lifetimes. So that's why I'm not stocking up on a lifetime supply.
I plan to get a prescription as an Alzheimer's preventive. Go Bernie.
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Giving to relatives and close friends would be participating in the black market. I would strongly suggest not giving stash to anyone you know, unless okay with idea of being a black market distributor. Personally, I'd be very okay with it, but then again, I'm not sitting on gallons of nic.
Also, people not stocking up and relying on black market, are obviously not overly concerned. Easy to say that a black market will be done in dark alleys and you run the risk of getting hurt or arrested in every transaction. I find that laughable, as vast majority of such deals will likely be done in people's living rooms. But this need to paint it as nefarious and full of danger, while sitting on gallons of nic yourself is, how you say, highly inconsistent logic. If you thought of literally any other item on the black market, and had say a person with 5 pounds of MJ, and that person was busted as a dealer, when in their reality it (truly) was only for personal use, tell me would you believe that person who was distributing small amounts to family and "friends?" Ya know, as the need arises.
I think some of this conversation about black market has gone off the rails.
1. No one is sure IF existing vape gear will automatically become illegal / contraband on May12. Most, if not all gear will be unavailable for sale after that date. I do not remember seeing that the deeming refers to possession by individual users; just wholesale, retail sales. Of course this is fluid and 'may' change.
2. Even if changes were made to make individual possession "illegal", trying to wrestle with imports, tens of thousands of retail establishments, and then hundreds of thousands of users- I think we're probably on the lowest end of their concern. Handing a few gifts to friends probably won't even make a ripple.(take out an ad on-line to sell items be another slightly easier to crack down on- but still daunting.
1. No one is sure IF existing vape gear will automatically become illegal / contraband on May12. Most, if not all gear will be unavailable for sale after that date. I do not remember seeing that the deeming refers to possession by individual users; just wholesale, retail sales. Of course this is fluid and 'may' change.
2. Even if changes were made to make individual possession "illegal", trying to wrestle with imports, tens of thousands of retail establishments, and then hundreds of thousands of users- I think we're probably on the lowest end of their concern. Handing a few gifts to friends probably won't even make a ripple.(take out an ad on-line to sell items be another slightly easier to crack down on- but still daunting.
True. I don't believe for a second that come May (11th, is it?), that overnight nothing will be available. There's just way too much discretionary enforcement for them to focus first on things that ANTZ constituents aren't screaming at legislators about. But give BT lobbyists time, and it'll expand far past the low hanging fruit over time. I think there will be some amount of mods, atties, etc. available for a while, but not near what we see today, and not at today's prices. It'll be an evolving market. Strictly speaking, almost all vape supplies we buy today are not legal. But make no mistake, don't wait to get your nic!
I figure in a couple of years, I'll just be able to buy and repurpose an atty from the CBD shops that'll likely be at the end of my driveway, or down the road, or one of the thousands of others in my city.
Oh, and giving away things does not constitute participating in a market of any kind. Unless it's an inducement to influence a purchase. Commerce and Markets by definition require payment of some sort (I know it wasn't you who said that Proax).
According to Final Guidance everything on the market is illegal, unless it has a PMTA pending. Here is direct quote from that Guidance, under the heading of "Avoiding the Black Market"
Final Guidance says this more than once. It also says 30 days after publication of the Guidance, enforcement can begin. May is more like the date to get PMTA on file so as to avoid enforcement.
According to Final Guidance vaping is really big deal for them in terms of enforcement. But they realize they won't capture everything. I doubt they capture even 5% of what's available.
But can't have it both ways. Can't say stockers/hoarders will be fine cause they are low on totem pole, but those black market operators with 15 customers are going to be in big trouble, every time they make a deal. Which is reason not to stock up. Not that the reason not to stock is better, but it's just a matter of preference. Some, would prefer the idea of never running out of eLiquid via their own personal stash meant to last a lifetime. Others would prefer not to have in their possession the same amount that dealers in the black market will have.
Yes, we know, as I posted, that almost everything today is illegal. But you're muddying up this part: Stockers and hoarders aren't selling anything. They're not even ON the totem pole. None of this even contemplates making possession illegal at this point. Everyone that stocks up is 100% safe, regardless of how much they stock, or if the government cared enough to track how much they own. Unless they become a seller of illegal products.
There was a vaping Law in Indiana for a while a few years ago. Part of that law made it a crime to mix juice and give it someone else, even as a free gift. That part of the law was presumably aimed at stopping shops from providing free samples, but the language went further than that. It specifically said it was legal to mix juice for your own use, but selling or giving it to another person without a manufacturer's license was a crime.
We never saw how those rules would have been used in practice because the law was nixed shortly after it came into effect. It's likely they wouldn't have used it against individuals, but they could have.
The federal regs haven't been issued yet and there's no indication they will include that type of language.
So, then your saying black market operators, stocking up right now are 100% safe. I very much disagree. Possession is currently not being enforced. It could be though. All products are currently illegal. I would think those that have the amount that dealers have, ought to be concerned. If you literally tell no one about your stash (includes family and friends), then I see nothing to be overly concerned about. But quite possible many black operators (surely not all) will be distributing to friends. And unless they are dumb, cutting it with something harmful that will inevitably get back to them (as it did with all the recent vape deaths), then it'll be a non-issue for them as well.
I'm not muddying anything up. If hoarders distribute to family/friends, they are black market operators. I'm sure they'll think of themselves in a much more honorable light. Just as I think of all black marketers going forward as operating in an honorable light. They literally ought to be praised by all vapers, and never disparaged, unless they are purposely cutting their liquids with something that is (truly) harmful.
Literally, any hoarder reading this could be a distrubutor/seller. To think of black market operators as nefarious, is bewildering. It would very much be like thinking of all vapers that share anything with anyone (which I've done) as having nefarious intentions. Must be fun thinking like ANTZ. Me, I'd rather not.
I figure in a couple of years, I'll just be able to buy and repurpose an atty from the CBD shops that'll likely be at the end of my driveway, or down the road, or one of the thousands of others in my city.
Didn't the final guidance specify that cannabis vapes are not included in the regulation. My dream is May 13 we will see a few "new cannabis vapes" hitting the market. I am stocked for at least 15 years (I am 35.) I am hopeful we have learned our lesson with prohibition and a true ban will be short lived. Something will pass thru the PMTA process. I'm sure taxes are gonna be a
but hopefully I can taper down.Not one of the vapers I know are stocking up. Some I have known for years, others are co workers I only see on occasion. When the vape illness first hit I made a point to talk to all of them and share my thoughts on the issue at hand and advised they should start stocking up.
I assume us stockers are the minority.
Can you provide examples of where it is legal for individuals to possess any product that is illegal on the open market?
Based on what you're getting at, I fully assume that at some date, if not done already, states will pass laws that criminalize possession of certain amounts if eLiquid. While also criminalizing intent to distribute. I have almost no idea what that amount will be, but if I had to guess, it would be up to 100 ml, maybe as much as 500 ml.
If you were asking something else, I'd probably refer you to Final Guidance where it states, repeatedly, that all ENDS products currently on the market, are in violation of the TCA. As I already did in this thread.
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