you didn't really quit smoking because you're vaping...

[Jman8]

so my question here is, how do you deal with this? and by that i mean other than arguing. you can never convince anyone of anything by trying to force them into a corner. you can possibly get them to admit that you are right on certain points but you just put them on the defensive and inside their opinions don't change much.
is there a good metaphor that people can understand easily? by that i mean something along the lines of vaping being the equivalent of sugar free candy for diabetics or soy burgers for vegans or something around those lines.

I give myself full permission to smoke. I had a whole half of a smoke yesterday. Currently smoking about a pack every 3 to 4 weeks. My position remains that smoking in moderation is very okay. So, if I encounter anti-smoking types, who may also be vapers, I pose the question about what harm is there in moderate smoking? If an argument continues (doesn't usually) and I'm met with inevitable response along lines of 'smoking is never a good thing,' I essentially post the question again, what harm is there in moderate smoking?

While this may be manifesting an argument and/or defensiveness, which OP was suggesting need not occur, I feel it sets up, rather easily a position of less harm. With vaping being that which is currently recognized as less harm, even more than moderate smoking. I do my best, sometimes not well, to really listen to where person is coming from. Is it a place of care and consideration, or righteous anti type position. With the latter, I may try to hold my ground, but voice in my head is saying don't walk away, run. With the former, discussion is more cordial, greater feeling of acceptance. With this person, I may be (hopefully am) willing to concede that non-use is reasonably healthier than any use (of nicotine). As my bottom line currently is that I enjoy nicotine and desire to partake in it via moderate smoking and good amount of vaping, I generally encounter acceptance.

I find such discussions are easier if I start by being honest with myself. And willing to listen to the other side if that side is coming from a place of genuine care and respect.

Admittedly, it does help that I've had two doctors tell me, within last year, that my vaping is a-okay with them.

 

[DC2]

I found the original link to the Harvard study I mentioned, and it has been moved or taken down. Here is CASAA.

Here is a link that works...
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/jphp/journal/v32/n1/pdf/jphp201041a.pdf

 

[patkin]

A non-smoker has no frame of reference for how strongly the addiction grips you.

It's like trying to explain to a man what childbirth or even, god forbid, an ovarian cyst feels like.

If it's someone who isn't relevant to you or your life, don't hesitate to inform them that their opinion is also irrelevant. Observe the look of shock and amazement once they realize that not everyone considers the unsolicited foot-swapping that occurs whenever they open their mouth to be the pinnacle of human wisdom.

Oh, but they do and close observation will tell you what their addiction is. They just don't think of their obsession/habit as an addiction. Are they over weight? The diet industry is a multi-billion dollar one for a reason. Are they alls decked out in the latest and greatest style? What does it look like they spent on clothes? Jewelry? Tattoos? It goes on.... but you get the point. Everyone has their pet "vice" and can relate if put in that context. If the person is particularly rude or shaming, I have no problem pointing theirs out. What goes around comes around is the old saying its just that it hasn't come around to the haters YET.

 

[Katdarling]

Agreed. Just as walking around in a totally judgmental state all the time is, or can be quite seductively addictive for many people. It reminds me of the "I'm fat, but you're stupid" line. Can't fix stupid.

The insecurity of "I'm better than you" runs rampant everywhere. (Sadly, we even see it here, all too often, in terms of our own hardware choices, right?)

My faves are the dry smokers who ask me "if that thing really works" just to engage me in a moment of chat only to steer the conversation back to their favorite subject...themselves. "Yes, it works, and" (now instantly cut off by an interruptive voice)... "Yeah, well I quit (cold turkey) 2 years ago."

Yeah? You're so special. (You're so special = go do something lewd to yourself, or I don't really give a "whatever", or kiss my most posterior body part, or any other such phrase I didn't learn at finishing school.)

 

[DC2]

I've taken it in the gut, so to speak, for years from self-righteous non and ex smokers and I'm not going to do it anymore. If I detect an ounce of prejudice coming my way, I say so. Some people have genuine concerns for their OWN health and I respect that and will treat them respectfully by explaining they're in no danger.... but... and its a big one.... when I see they're like a fish flopping around on the beach and terrified they're going to loose their pet hate peeve I will find an opportune put down that points out their prejudice and judgement. Its high time the shame was thrown back in their face where it actually belongs. The bashing they've done of smokers is not acceptable which is really what they're still trying to do. They need that in their lives to feel superior. I will let them know just what inferior humans they are and then move one because closed minds with a hidden agenda cannot be reasoned with but they sure can be shown that what worked on me before is over. I'm one of those 60's kids and have done it before with racial epithets. I spoke up loudly whenever one was used around me. Smoking was turned into a "moral issue" rather than a health one by these types and I won't continue to be their target while vaping. People don't change. Some will fight hard to keep some group or other "beneath" them. Discern the difference between that and reason and handle things accordingly.

I've been reading this forum almost daily for nearly four years now, and this may be my favorite post of all time.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I have to say, I am glad you said something DC, cause I kinda skimmed over it and moved on when reviewing the thread. After your comment, I re-read it. That is a profound and powerful thought that is not often given voice. Bravo patkin!

 

[malhaku]

I guess I've been lucky. No one has been aggressive or confrontational to me about it at all. I've answered a lot of questions, but if I state "I quit smoking and get my nicotine in an alternative form." I've personally gotten almost all "congrats" and "good job"s.

The only time I got close to a response as discussed in this thread, a friend answered for me before I could phrase a response.
Person A: "So there's still nicotine? Isn't it relatively the same thing, then?" (It was definitely more inquisitive than confrontational.)
My friend: "Sure. If standing over a tea kettle is relatively the same as standing over a factory chimney..."
Person A: "Heh. Good point."

I should add I have some very awesome friends.

 

[Leatherneck]

Nobody has chosen to be obnoxious to me over it yet. My level of return-snark will depend on how far they push me, up to and including "and at what point did you think I'd give a (*insert explicative of the moment here*) what you think on the subject?".

 

[p-doze]

If there are militant non-smoking advocates that are busting your chops over vaping, challenge them inquisitively, "Tell me what's in my ecig, I'm curious". Chances are they will say "Antifreeze and nicotine!".

just to play devil's advocate, how would you explain the ingredients in two different flavors of e-liquid from two different manufacturers? and why do some flavors that have the same PG/VG and nicotine levels crack clearos, while others don't?

edit: this isn't a trap either, i don't know the answer to either question

 

[subversive]

Some flavors react with certain plastics and some don't. They're all food-safe flavoring, though.

 

[p-doze]

"food safe" or "approved by the FDA" sounds like a term big tobacco would use if someone asked what ingredients were in a cigarette...

 

[akatina]

Some flavors react with certain plastics and some don't. They're all food-safe flavoring, though.

"food safe" or "approved by the FDA" sounds like a term big tobacco would use if someone asked what ingredients were in a cigarette...

No, not really.... Food safe is an actual thing, it's not a buzz phrase just because you think it sounds like one.

Whether or not a substance reacts with plastic has no bearing on whether or not it is safe to ingest (or inhale). Hydrofluoric acid doesn't react with plastic but will dissolve flesh and metal. It's not safe to ingest, FYI. Vinegar will dissolve bone given enough time, but most people happily eat it in some form or another.

 

[p-doze]

there are also food safe paints, doesn't mean i'd intentionally drink them.

i phrased my original question from the 'devil's advocate' perspective, because that's the type of scrutiny this industry will eventually be under. if you bring outlier examples as your only defenses, they won't hold muster under more intense scrutiny. i don't have any bottles of e-liquid in front of me, but i don't believe they list ingredients on them. similarly to the way cigarettes(in the USA) don't have ingredients listed on their packaging either.

 

[kristin]

That is why our argument needs to focus on the effects of vaping vs. smoking rather than a comparison to breathing clean air (which most of us living in cities don't really have anyhow.) Every negative effect and "toxic" or "carcinogenic" ingredient found in the vapor needs to be compared to the ingredients in SMOKE, not purified air.

 

[akatina]

there are also food safe paints, doesn't mean i'd intentionally drink them.

i phrased my original question from the 'devil's advocate' perspective, because that's the type of scrutiny this industry will eventually be under. if you bring outlier examples as your only defenses, they won't hold muster under more intense scrutiny. i don't have any bottles of e-liquid in front of me, but i don't believe they list ingredients on them. similarly to the way cigarettes(in the USA) don't have ingredients listed on their packaging either.

That depends on where you buy your liquid.

 

[budynbuick]

i'm sure i'm not the only one who has heard this: "well, you didn't really quit smoking because you're vaping."

it seems i've gotten that only from non-smokers and it's a bit of a disappointment. smokers seem to consider my switching to vaping as "quitting" but non-smokers seem to have a different, mostly antagonistic, take on it. i believe i would not get that reaction if i said i had gone so long without a cigarette while using the patch or nicotine gum, but there's this opposition to vaping.
i think it's partly because it gives off the impression that smokers are having their cake and eating it too. meaning a nicotine fix without the high chance of cancer, emphysema, etc. it just seems too good that somehow smokers found a loophole where they can still be breathing out clouds of something that looks like smoke with a pleasant taste, that takes care of your need for nicotine and (holy moly!) can even be used indoors in many non-smoking places. there's a certain "that can't be right" attitude i've gotten.
i've explained in detail studies on propylene glycol --particularly for those who bring up the "anti-freeze" meme and so on, but in return i get a reduction ad absurdum argument that turns into possible carcinogenics in both natural and artificial flavoring. --and this comes from people who don't avoid artificial flavoring in the food they eat. somehow i feel safe to say that i don't think these people would begin arguing with me about the fact that there are no long term studies on the adhesives used on the patch or similar hair splitting issues. the attitude is just that it sounds too easy for smokers. it looks like they are smoking so there must be something really bad about it, even if we don't know what.
hey, i'm all for further research on inhaling natural and artificial flavors, i do know that some artificial flavorings are bad for you and your lungs (such as some butter flavorings used in microwave popcorn), but i can't seem to get the idea across of the amazing benefits of harm reduction in switching to vaping. to me that's the most important thing. i realize that i'm still addicted to nicotine but i also think this is the farthest i've ever gone from freeing me from the smoking habit and that if it wasn't for vaping i'd still be smoking almost two packs a day and suffering the consequences.

so my question here is, how do you deal with this? and by that i mean other than arguing. you can never convince anyone of anything by trying to force them into a corner. you can possibly get them to admit that you are right on certain points but you just put them on the defensive and inside their opinions don't change much.
is there a good metaphor that people can understand easily? by that i mean something along the lines of vaping being the equivalent of sugar free candy for diabetics or soy burgers for vegans or something around those lines.

FWIW,people that know me don't even go there. They know my reaction would be 'mind your own business'. I don't tolerate others presuming they can manipulate me with their words. My wife loves it & that's all that matters. I play well with others till they try & 'push'. Also, I didn't want to quit cigs, I needed too.

 

[patkin]

"You haven't really quit, because you're still inhaling nicotine and acting like you're smoking."
You mean that I haven't really quit nicotine then, not that I haven't quit smoking. Because I've obviously quit smoking since I no longer inhale smoke. So what's more important? To quit smoking or to quit nicotine?

"But nicotine causes (cancer, heart disease.)"
No, it doesn't. That is a myth. Nicotine keeps people smoking, which causes smoking-related diseases. They are called "smoking-related diseases" not "nicotine-related diseases." Doctors want people to quit nicotine so they will quit smoking. If nicotine didn't keep people smoking, doctors wouldn't have any more of a problem with it than they do caffeine.

"But you're still addicted."
Maybe. Either way, at least now I won't get smoking-related diseases because of it.

"But don't you want to be free from addiction?"
It doesn't bother me so long as it won't kill me. Millions of people are just as addicted to caffeine, but no one has a problem with it because it's pretty harmless. I enjoy vaping like other people enjoy coffee, so what's the difference as long as there are little to no health risks? If they don't have to quit caffeine, why should I have to quit nicotine?

"Nicotine is more addictive than caffeine. It's more addictive than her-oin!"
Another myth started by anti-tobacco people with absolutely no scientific basis. There is not one scientific study showing that to be true - just try to find one. In one breath they say it's so horribly addictive and in the next they justify smoking bans by saying smokers should be able to go hours without a cigarette out of courtesy for non-smokers. So which is it?

"If you're going to smoke, why not just smoke the real thing?"
Because I don't want increase my risk of cancer or heart disease, thank you.

"It looks stupid."
So do safety goggles, bicycle helmets and hazmat suits, but does that mean we shouldn't use them? And now I get to look stupid inside a warm building instead of standing outside in the cold and rain.

I went cold turkey 20 years ago.
My cardiologist told me not to do that.

 

[patkin]

there are also food safe paints, doesn't mean i'd intentionally drink them.

i phrased my original question from the 'devil's advocate' perspective, because that's the type of scrutiny this industry will eventually be under. if you bring outlier examples as your only defenses, they won't hold muster under more intense scrutiny. i don't have any bottles of e-liquid in front of me, but i don't believe they list ingredients on them. similarly to the way cigarettes(in the USA) don't have ingredients listed on their packaging either.

Cigarettes and many other products on the market don't list ingredients but do have to provide them if you contact them. They have a webite address or phone number on the label telling you to contact them to get the info.

 

[kristin]

I went cold turkey 20 years ago.
My cardiologist told me not to do that.

Interesting. What was his reasoning? Another factoid - "cold turkey" is probably the most successful way most people quit smoking. If you think about it, ALL methods of quitting are cold turkey, because eventually you have to stop using whatever product you're using (NRT, anti-depressants, Chantix) and you're on your own. I've quit 3 times (during each pregnancy and while nursing) and every time it was "cold turkey."

I truly believe the difference is WANTING to quit. Even though ANTZ claim nearly 70% of smokers "report they want to quit," my theory is most SAY they want to quit because they know they SHOULD quit or they are being pressured to quit. That also means that over 30% of smokers DON'T say they want to quit. The CDC reports 6.2% of smokers quit every year, even though 52.4% make the attempt. That means around 17% of those smokers who say they want to quit don't even try. But those 6.2% that do succeed prove that people who truly WANT to quit CAN quit.

That is why e-cigarettes are becoming popular so quickly. Smokers who say they "want" to quit, but really don't want to just know that they should are finding e-cigarettes allow them to have their cake and eat it, too. (ie. "Since smoking is bad for me and I know I should quit, but I really don't WANT to quit, e-cigarettes are the perfect compromise!") That's also why so many vapers are shocked to hear that the ANTZ oppose e-cigarettes. It flies in the face of everything they've been told about why they should quit smoking.

 

[Commie]

That is why our argument needs to focus on the effects of vaping vs. smoking rather than a comparison to breathing clean air (which most of us living in cities don't really have anyhow.) Every negative effect and "toxic" or "carcinogenic" ingredient found in the vapor needs to be compared to the ingredients in SMOKE, not purified air.

I would actually go further. If people insist on comparing it to purified air, I'd prefer to compare it to a city air, which is perfectly legal to breathe, and is not even regulated by FDA.