Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

The Ocelot

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This article is about cigars, but worth reading.

The FDA's New Tobacco Rules Will Be Terrible for Cigar Smokers Too

A 2012 investigation by the Associated Press found that the FDA had received nearly 3,500 of these "substantial equivalence" applications since the law took effect in 2009. The agency was expected to rule on these applications within ninety days of receipt. At the end of 2012 it had issued zero rulings, with many applications lingering for years.

(In 2009 the FDA began regulating tobacco.) Link to AP article: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/fda-review-tobacco-products-grinds-halt
 

GunMonkeyINTL

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I don't want to clog this important thread with DIY stuff, but I thought I would jump in briefly for those wondering about how to store nic long term. My thoughts on this matter have changed a bit from what I "knew" years ago, but not much, and not in my methodology.

I have unthinned VG-nic in well-sealed glass in the freezer that is virtually unchanged after 6.75 years. In plastic, especially LDPE, it will oxidize, even in the freezer. Some PG-nics I've had in glass did oxidize in the freezer after about a year, some didn't. I don't vape PG-nic, nor have I had any for a few years, so I don't have more data on that, but it seems that the cleaner the nic, the longer it will freeze unchanged in PG. I think others here (Salem?) has found this too. Most nic today is very clean compared to 2009.

I don't have data on frozen ready-to-vape e-liquids with flavors, since I make my own fresh as I need them. I don't buy flavored e-liquids, and I only freeze unflavored VG-nic, mostly 100 mg/mL.

If you feel better by purging the headspace air with N2 or Ar to rid it of O2, ok. However, I think it is a negligible effect. 3 mL of headspace air at 25% O2 will give enough O2 to at most react with about 5 mg of nicotine. And that is only if it all reacts. VG naturally contains about 2 mg of O2 per liter, which if it all reacts will oxidize about 0.38 mg of nic...per liter of VG.

If the nic started out colorless before freezing, and it remains colorless, it has not oxidized. Nic-oxides are deep brown colored, and it takes barely any at all to yellow a nic solution. It takes considerable coloration before the original nic concentration is significantly impacted...although you may detect a tobacco taste and added TH. Testing is fine if you want to do that, but no color change means no oxidation. And kit titrations are really only accurate to about +/- 10%. 10% oxidation will be a very deep orange-brown. I used to test, I just use color now.

Cold slows all reactions down, frozen solid or not (VG does not freee entirely). This is a function of chemical kinetics and molecular dynamics...nic and O2 cannot move well in the thick glue-like liquid that VG turns into in at freezer temps, so they don't find each other as easily. And since the only real source of O2 that can impact nic is from the external environment, well-sealed glass takes care of that. Plastics tend to be rather O2-porous.

Yes, very cold VG will absorb water from the air, but again, this is a negligible effect. VG is too thick to syringe or work with very cold, anyway, so allowing it warm to room temp before opening is normal.

Making diluted unflavored nic with added water will introduce more O2, but probably very little. Viscosity is lower, however, so nic cycles to the surface more often...but again, if it is sealed in glass, I doubt the effect after a long time in the freezer will be noticeable. I don't do this, however, and I don't have concrete data on this.

Cold VG will expand when warmed, so I advocate a few mL of headspace. Let the bottle warm standing up...that air bubble will expand more than VG and can cause leaking under the cap if the bottle is on its side and in a warm environment.

I use SpecialtyBottle.com 50 mL Eurodropper amber bottles (Essential Oil Amber Dropper Bottles | Specialty Bottle). This is a company that makes glass for chemicals, so it is not cheap glass with many defects that can crack with temp change. I've never had a break, but I'm not saying it is impossible. Glass is glass. The dropper insert protects against spilling and allows syringe access to the liquid. Others use glass bottles with cone-caps for good sealing. They have blue and green glass as well. Dark is good, but it is UV that catalyzes oxidation most, not so much visible light, and freezers are dark. I have some of my nic in colorless glass bottles, and they have not changed in the freezer in the years I've had them, maybe 4 years...and even at room temp, oxidation is very very slow if in well sealed glass. A 50 mL bottle out for usage will last me months of mixing with very little change.

I have every reason to believe VG-nic will last essentially forever unchanged in the freezer and in glass. If 6.75 years shows no change, I don't see at all why it shouldn't last for decades.

Kurt, thank you, so much. As I was reading this post, I gained confidence that the nic (2l 100mg VG) and the storage bottles I bought were the right thing.

Then I realized that the bottles I ordered were EXACTLY the same ones from the same vendor in your link, because the quick self-education I did before placing my order on Thursday night...was from one of your threads on the topic of nic storage.

The three guys at work, that I mentioned in an earlier post, who asked for my receipts, placed their orders for the same stuff on Friday.

So, rather than just 'liking' your post, I wanted to let you know that the knowledge you've gathered, and put in the time to write out for us, is worthwhile and has even grown tentacles that have pulled it up, off of the Internet, and into word-of-mouth and the real world.

Consider yourself appreciated.
 

vape-addict

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I was quite dismayed earlier at something myself. The LP posted about it on FB and I glanced through the first hundred or so comments. Now remember that Libertarians should be almost in 100% (if not 100%) agreement with us. About 1 out of 15 of those comments were against ecigarettes and for the deeming and showed a total swollowing of media lies. Unless those comments against ecigs were by trolls who follow the LP's FB page I was flabbergasted.

Those are pseudo libertarians..go to reason .com and read the columns there by true libertarians
 

SilverBear

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The 90 days is for the Child safety, labeling and No New Products can be introduced into the market. Example, no new flavors. No new tanks. No new mods.

The above in red is only for stuff sourced in the US, correct? I'm thinking - and correct me if
I'm wrong - the Chinese manufacturers are able to continue innovation and releasing new
products. Those will be available through distributors in China (and other countries) for
shipment to US. But THERE is where things MAY become iffy... seizures, etc.

Do you (the general "you") believe the FDA will inspect every package entering the US?... as
well as manning the enforcement of the child safety and labeling aspect? The manufacturers
could set up distribution centers in any number of countries if China is in the crosshairs.

Or am I completely "off" in this thinking?
 
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rothenbj

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vape-addict

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The above in red is only for stuff sourced in the US, correct? I'm thinking - and correct me if
I'm wrong - the Chinese manufacturers are able to continue innovation and releasing new
products. Those will be available through distributors in China (and other countries) for
shipment to US. But THERE is where things MAY become iffy... seizures, etc.

Do you (the general "you") believe the FDA will inspect every package entering the US?... as
well as manning the enforcement of the child safety and labeling aspect? The manufacturers
could set up distribution centers in any number of countries if China is in the crosshairs.

Or am I completely "off" in this thinking?


They don't have to inspect every package the USPS and Customs have X-ray machines and sensors packages get tagged on rejected off the line for further inspection
 

bobwho77

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At the end of the day all of this just comes down to the federal government usurping authority from the states and the people, and taxing it all. Oh, they claim they're doing it for the sake of the children... suuuuure... mmm-hmmm. They said that about why they raided the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas in 1993 too. (and burned 17 children to death among all the others they roasted)

Make no mistake. It is all about taxes and power.

May your chains rest upon you lightly.


While taxes are probably a part of the equation, the real push for these rules came from BP/BT. THEY are the ones losing market share to vaping. THEY are the ones with the money, and media to "manufacture consent" in the general public, with their fear mongering publication of junk science studies. THEY are the ones with the political muscle to get this done
You are right about the chains, but not about who put them there
 
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Robert Cromwell

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Did a search, think it is the "Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act" in 2010. Looks to be very cigarette/tax oriented, so I think that would need to be directly amended to include vaping devices...
it will be amended later after the taxes get put on vape stuff? Unless the industry is pretty much wiped out.
 
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Robert Cromwell

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That is How I Understand it Also.

And it could Also get passed to Congress for a Rubber Stamping, Hit the President Desk for a quick John Hancock and then be Off to the Federal Registry lickety-split.
but congress and the president has already given the FDA authority to regulate tobacco products.
And the lawsuit "won" by vaping the first time against the FDA did define vaping stuff as tobacco products. So we won that battle but gave ammo for losing the war.
 
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Spazmelda

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but congress and the president has already given the FDA authority to regulate tobacco products.
And the lawsuit "won" by vaping the first time against the FDA did define vaping stuff as tobacco products. So we won that battle but gave ammo for losing the war.

This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, but losing that battle would not have put us in any better of a position. I'm pretty sure it would have been way worse if we had not 'won' that one. Just my possibly uninformed opinion.
 

Wow1420

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I think Many In Congress, and about Every State, is kinda Fed Up with how LONG this has taken already. There are Also Many who want to Stand at the Podium when this is done and tell their Constituents how they Just saved all those Children by approving the FDA Regulations. (Never pass up a Photo Op.)

So I think this going to Congress and getting put on a Back Burner until it Automatically Passes is Not very Likely.

Is congressional approval all-or-nothing? Do they have th option of saying, OK to all but change the grandfather date? Or let stand age and labeling, but not the PMTA requirements?

I fully expect congressional inaction to allow implementation by default, just wondering about the process.
 
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ZeroedIn

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This sounds good but for one thing. For instance if a company sells R/C or flashlight mod accessories and has a sudden increase in battery sales that doesn't track with an increase in flashlights or R/C
vehicles the FDA could assume that the company should reasonably know what caused the increase
in said sales if only for the fact that tracking sales for analysis is done quite often more times
than not.

Additionally the FDA could analyze imports of specific items in search of discrepancies
and investigate the causes of these and take appropriate actions if deemed necessary.
all of the of course hinges on the FDA's desire to do so. They certainly could if they chose
to do so. I personally do not believe the FDA will pursue this route unless it is necessary
to effectively control and regulate the market.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
This would only apply to US-based companies. The FDA has no authority to examine sales records of companies located in foreign jurisdictions.
 
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Alexander Mundy

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another good anti-regulation ad campaign is "One Billion Lives".

If you are referring to "A Billion Lives" then I am dismayed that no one can see it. It won't get the message out just being seen at a few world premier film festivals. He has stated that if Hollywood picks it up it will get out there. This is obviously (to me) saying they want the revenue from Hollywood. I can understand that if he has put considerable money into making it, however I nievly expected it to be released when done since that wasn't mentioned when I first started following it. I assumed he had charitable donor revenue. With today's social media it could be everywhere already.
 

Robert Cromwell

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This would only apply to US-based companies. The FDA has no authority to examine sales records of companies located in foreign jurisdictions.
But the foreign companies may need to submit them to the FDA to prove the product they are exporting to the USA is the same product as before August 8, 2016.

We may be looking at a temporary halt of imported vaping devices around August until this is lined out.
 

mikepetro

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I have 6 of the original Aromamizers, and just ordered 6 of the V2s. Looks like the spare decks and tanks will fit either. I figure that with care, I should easily be able to get 2 years out of each atty if need be.

That effectively checks off the last item on my 20 year plan.....

A dozen spare DNA200 boards - check
Ability to create my own Enclosure - check
2 Liters of 99.9 nic - check
A dozen quality SS attys - check

Lipos, PG, VG, flavorings, wire, and rayon will always be available.

Smoking again is NOT an option, even if the FDA pulls the rug out......
It really is ironic though, the FDA is making it easier to smoke tobacco than to have an effective vape!!!!
 

Tucsonbroker

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I've poured through 94 pages of this thread as well as the FDA site and I can't seem to get any definitive answer regarding local vape shops that make their own juice. According to the FDA site in 90 days they will be considered "tobacco product manufacturers" and would need to submit applications of various types in order to continue operations.

I called my local shop and they didn't seem at all concerned. Said they were already compliant with the 18+ restrictions.

So is this accurate? Will mom and pop vape shops have to cease mixing their own juices in 90 days?
 
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GeorgeS

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    I see a future where mods are "dry herb atomizers" that with user configuration changes to the actual atomizer can be used for liquids.

    While I have 3L of 100mg stock piled the $64 question (as it always was) where do we get our nicotine? I suppose the out of country suppliers can label and market it as RAT POISON or something. ;)
     

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