Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

The downsizing of vendors has begun. I received an email from a supplier that they are dropping the higher levels of nic and higher ratios of pg.

So, I just listened to the clickbang show posted a few pages back, not all of it, but the part from the flavourart guy.

He fully expects that the market post regulation will be sealed systems with very limited options. If that is the case, it will actually be the higher mg/pg stuff that survives...

 

[wiredlove]

Exactly the reason I'm stocking up on mods, tanks, and the various vaping supplies I'll need to continue vaping. When juice is no longer available to my liking I'll DIY. When nic is outlawed i'll vape 0mg. I've been at 3mg and 6mg levels for quite a while in preparation. I may have to add some pepper flavor to my juice to simulate the nic bite, but that's OK.

Yet, cigarettes are still legal if you want to chance a horrible death. Don't you wonder why a killer product isn't outlawed and a safer alternative is being slowly eradicated? There's a tax money angle in their somewhere. We all know why BT is being given a pass.

Menthol adds a nice burn, if you can stand it. Could just pass the eliquid near some sealed menthol crystals and get plenty of flavor.

 

[rosesense]

Did they give the deeming regs as the reason for cutting back?
Vendors have been culling stock and dropping the higher nic levels
for some time as the lower nic juice sells better.
Mike

I hope they don't mind me pasting this part here but this is what was stated:
"We thought about these changes to devices and looked at the data of how many people use these levels and we decided to make the changes sooner rather than later.

We hope this does not inconvenience anyone. With the FDA deeming regulations coming out recently, there may be a possibility of more changes in the future. We think making changes now will help our customers for the future of vaping. "

 

[mattiem]

You must have gotten the same email, that is the reasoning.

I am down to 1.5 nic and would manage with zero, if need be.

hehehehe, I actually didn't but I saw it coming I guess my crystal ball was telling me the truth (JK)

 

[DaveP]

The downsizing of vendors has begun. I received an email from a supplier that they are dropping the higher levels of nic and higher ratios of pg.

That's going to happen, but it's as much about lower sales as it is about deeming regs. People aren't buying the 18, 24, and 36mg juices like they used to when we used mods that ran at battery voltage like the original eGo. When you up the voltage/wattage the need for high nic drops.

So, there's no need to pay pocket draining FDA certification costs on a product that has low sales. I'll bet that a poll on ECF would reveal that most vapers are using juices under 12mg, most at 6mg or lower.

 

[rosesense]

So, I just listened to the clickbang show posted a few pages back, not all of it, but the part from the flavourart guy.

He fully expects that the market post regulation will be sealed systems with very limited options. If that is the case, it will actually be the higher mg/pg stuff that survives...

I think the smaller suppliers who might be planning to submit applications know they can't afford to do so on lots of flavors and levels so will narrow it to the most popular, that would be less pg/nic levels for the newer devices.

 

[Lessifer]

That's going to happen, but it's as much about lower sales as it is about deeming regs. People aren't buying the 18, 24, and 36mg juices like they used to when we used mods that ran at battery voltage like the original eGo. When you up the voltage/wattage the need for high nic drops.

So, there's no need to pay pocket draining FDA certification costs on a product that has low sales. I'll bet that a poll on ECF would reveal that most vapers are using juices under 12mg, most at 6mg or lower.

That might be true, but I bet a poll of all vapers in the US would show the opposite trend. We tend to forget that the vast majority of vapers are using what is available in blister packs and on the shelves of convenience/tobacco stores.

There's a reason why the juul has 54mg liquid in it, or whatever it is.

 

[Lessifer]

I think the smaller suppliers who might be planning to submit applications know they can't afford to do so on lots of flavors and levels so will narrow it to the most popular, that would be less pg/nic levels for the newer devices.

I have no doubt you're right, I just think they're betting on the wrong horse, but it's not my money.

Let's say nothing stops the regs as written, and by some miracle, some refillable devices actually get approved. Do you think they will be high volume high wattage devices? Or do you think they'll be low wattage, probably low temperature, and therefore low volume?

 

[Train2]

We here on ECF forget. The most popular device is still, I believe, a cartomizer.
And I actually see a fair number of CE-5-ish clearos.
I think there's certainly a SHIFT to iSticks and subohm tanks - but not a majority...

 

[Katdarling]

You are correct, DaveP (IMO). Some Vliquid manufacturers do in fact make higher mg. strengths of their product, but the vape stores don't order it! I now know I'm not alone in NOT vaping higher wattages, and still continue to use high-ish strength, heavy on the PG, vliquid. Hell, I thought it was the Kat's Meow when I cut from 18 to 15! Yaay me.

A group of volunteer moderators with some FAQBot shortcuts?


My favorite so far, posted to the We Are CASAA group a couple days ago, a response from McCain saying he is taking your opinion under consideration and urging you to submit your comments to the FDA before the public comment period ends in June of 2015.

That made me L o L!

The whole damn system is broken. That is the problem.

And too broken to bandage up. Perhaps a tear down is in order, followed by a rebuild.

 

[rosesense]

I read about 1/4 of the regs, until my head exploded and I am still unclear if they can regulate liquid with no nic. If not, I should think the small suppliers would apply for a flavor with 48 nic and sell the plain on the side like TV did with the doublers.

 

[Train2]

I think the juice companies for the most part, are doomed, unless we get those regs changed.
Not quickly - as the FDA will have a difficult time enforcing at first.
But they'll be targeted not long after vape shops are...
The only juice approved will come in packs of prefilled cartos, like Blu.

 

[Train2]

If the FDA thinks that your product is "INTENDED" for use with a tobacco product, then it's subject to their approval. It remains to be seen what happens when you slap a label on 0-nic liquid (or for that matter, on a ProVari) that says "Not intended for use with any Nicotine product".

How do you PROVE that?
How does the FDA prove it's not true?

Sadly, the FDA seems to be OK with writing rules lacking proof - so they'll probably pick someone as a test case and try to shut down a 0-nic juice vendor at some point.

I read about 1/4 of the regs, until my head exploded and I am still unclear if they can regulate liquid with no nic. If not, I should think the small suppliers would apply for a flavor with 48 nic and sell the plain on the side like TV did with the doublers.

 

[Lessifer]

I read about 1/4 of the regs, until my head exploded and I am still unclear if they can regulate liquid with no nic. If not, I should think the small suppliers would apply for a flavor with 48 nic and sell the plain on the side like TV did with the doublers.

It's a component, and therefore falls within the scope of the regulations. If you can prove it is 0nic, it won't require the same warning label(though it will still require one), and won't have to follow the age restriction. Of course, that's IF you can get the PMTA approved, because yes, it will still require one.

 

[wiredlove]

I have no doubt you're right, I just think they're betting on the wrong horse, but it's not my money.

Let's say nothing stops the regs as written, and by some miracle, some refillable devices actually get approved. Do you think they will be high volume high wattage devices? Or do you think they'll be low wattage, probably low temperature, and therefore low volume?

And then there's weirdos like me - I'm down to 18mg with about an 80% VG to 20% PG, but use a dna200 100W preheat/ 60watt normal + temp at around 510F on a dual SS316 24 gauge clocking in at about .22 Ohm on a [insert tank of the week here]; but I take the e-cig out of my mouth every once in a while. I might try a 12 or 14 mg mix next.

When I started, I was using 36mg/ml, but that was in 2008/9 time frame.

Also, I like nicotine - and caffeine.

 

[Lessifer]

And then there's weirdos like me - I'm down to 18mg with about an 80% VG to 20% PG, but use a dna200 100W preheat/ 60watt normal + temp at around 510F on a dual SS316 24 gauge clocking in at about .22 Ohm on a [insert tank of the week here]; but I take the e-cig out of my mouth every once in a while. I might try a 12 or 14 mg mix next.

When I started, I was using 36mg/ml, but that was in 2008/9 time frame.

Also, I like nicotine - and caffeine.

Yeah, you're a modwomper, like me. Even if you won't admit it
That's part of the reason my small stash of nic will actually last me so long, the "higher" mg means I vape less. It's fairly high volume when I vape it, but I go hours without picking up my mod.

 

[skoony]

That's going to happen, but it's as much about lower sales as it is about deeming regs. People aren't buying the 18, 24, and 36mg juices like they used to when we used mods that ran at battery voltage like the original eGo. When you up the voltage/wattage the need for high nic drops.

Quite correct. Nic levels are dropping, consumption of juice is going up,up,up.
Why is the 'vaping community' falling for this more than obvious marketing
gimmick. If what many believe is true that juice makers are printing money
by selling juice one would realize using devices that are juice guzzlers they
would be making these evil capitalist amoral vendors boat loads of more money.
Yet this cutting edge community doesn't see a relationship between the newer
hardware and the copious amounts of juice it takes to operate them and the
supposed boatloads of money the juice makers are getting hand over fist.

Somethings just boggle the mind.
Mike

 

[rosesense]

Here is a new marketing idea for someone to make money. Make skins that say not intended for use with any nicotine product. Better than labels for mods and the buyer can remove it if they choose. They could be cute and a great stick it to them laugh for all of us. I would display that on my Vari's.

 

[wiredlove]

If the FDA thinks that your product is "INTENDED" for use with a tobacco product, then it's subject to their approval. It remains to be seen what happens when you slap a label on 0-nic liquid (or for that matter, on a ProVari) that says "Not intended for use with any Nicotine product".

How do you PROVE that?
How does the FDA prove it's not true?

Sadly, the FDA seems to be OK with writing rules lacking proof - so they'll probably pick someone as a test case and try to shut down a 0-nic juice vendor at some point.

There are still other vaporizers out there for other products, sometimes they include adapters for liquids. Those certainly don't have the -intent- of being sold for what we'd use them for. The whole thing reads as a broad overreach and the enacting 'pre-crime' regulations. I've never been in favor of intent laws, regardless of their effectiveness. I abhor drunk drivers, but I also hate that I've known people who were arrested for sleeping it off in their cars under 'intent,' even if they hadn't driven and had no intention of doing so.

 

[Lessifer]

I should think the small suppliers would apply for a flavor with 48 nic and sell the plain on the side like TV did with the doublers.

If I were in the business, this would be the way I would go. Possibly partner with a device company, make some pre-filled tanks, maybe a proprietary fill connector(that could be pried off with enough effort). I'd make a liquid at around 50/50 pg/vg with maybe 24-36mg nic and a fairly high % of flavoring. Those using the device will think it's perfect, those buying the liquid can then cut it to their liking.