For myself, I'm not using the X at all anymore. We are adults, if I disagree I'll discuss or ignore. This tool is becoming a pita imo.
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As a tapayakker all I use is thumbs up, and can't even see the undoubted jillions of negatives my blather inspires [emoji5]
(I'm more a thumbs-up kinda poster anywho)
Thanks again for quickly fixing the tapatalk link, Oliver!
(I'm more a thumbs-up kinda poster anywho)
Thanks again for quickly fixing the tapatalk link, Oliver!
Absolutely... thanks Robin, for the sense checkIt's called growing pains. At first it's all fun and games, then crap hapoens, then things settle down into a more normal mode.
Just gotta get through the learning process. In a way it's good that this happened. We learned some things and that there are consequences. Kinda like real life, no?
Even through this, we are still helping new members find their way through the maze of information.
Perhaps a sticky somewhere (not in the New Members section because a lot of us dont go there much - which points to another problem as we probably should) that covered "Good Forum Etiquette" ??? One bullet point could about the use of Emojis, and point out that when using the disagree, it is good Etiquette to explain your disagreement in instances where your reasoning would not be obvious.
The last couple pages of posts on this incident would be perfect for formulating the wording. I.e. something like this: XYZ mod is the prettiest - no explanation needed. XYZ mod is not safe - an explanation would be a decent thing to do.
But I would see this as only 1 bullet point in a larger post. A lot of people are not aware of what "Good Forum Etiquette" is, especially if they come from the FB age group. I dont see this as a "RULES" thing, more like a Miss Manners for ECF thing.
The last couple pages of posts on this incident would be perfect for formulating the wording. I.e. something like this: XYZ mod is the prettiest - no explanation needed. XYZ mod is not safe - an explanation would be a decent thing to do.
But I would see this as only 1 bullet point in a larger post. A lot of people are not aware of what "Good Forum Etiquette" is, especially if they come from the FB age group. I dont see this as a "RULES" thing, more like a Miss Manners for ECF thing.
If there winds up being an "onboarding" process, like Oliver was thinking about in one thread, it could certainly be covered there.
With that said, requiring an OVERLY long list of links to be read upon arrival at ECF, would kinda need to make sure that things are kept relevant and short. I see no reason to not include it in the ECF rules, in any case, since the mods are going to be dealing with this problem as it comes up (e.g. if misuse/abuse of the red X occurs that may result in a warning, etc., and this is how it should be used, kind of thing). I do think it would be good to make the rules something that should be at least PRESENTED (not everyone's going to read it.... I know people) and then the user agrees to the terms....
It at least prevents the OMG didn't know excuse, which I believe I did use here upon my first sanction, but I DID promise to read the rules, and then promptly did so, but I did not located them initially.
Oh believe me, my behaviors are sometimes far from perfect, but I do think that information could be contained in ECF rules, and many moderated sites will require users to at least OPEN the rules and click "agree."
Then, once they get censured once, they can go back and actually read them. Sorry... I just know people....
Anna
With that said, requiring an OVERLY long list of links to be read upon arrival at ECF, would kinda need to make sure that things are kept relevant and short. I see no reason to not include it in the ECF rules, in any case, since the mods are going to be dealing with this problem as it comes up (e.g. if misuse/abuse of the red X occurs that may result in a warning, etc., and this is how it should be used, kind of thing). I do think it would be good to make the rules something that should be at least PRESENTED (not everyone's going to read it.... I know people) and then the user agrees to the terms....
It at least prevents the OMG didn't know excuse, which I believe I did use here upon my first sanction, but I DID promise to read the rules, and then promptly did so, but I did not located them initially.
Oh believe me, my behaviors are sometimes far from perfect, but I do think that information could be contained in ECF rules, and many moderated sites will require users to at least OPEN the rules and click "agree."
Then, once they get censured once, they can go back and actually read them. Sorry... I just know people....
Anna
How to get noticed on ECF
The good way --
1. You're extremely helpful to other members.
2. You never respond to trolls or flame other users.
3. Your posts stick to the forum topic.
4. You never ever post just for the sake of posting
5. You remain reasonable when things get heated.
6. You know what it means to "Agree to disagree".
7. Pick a story and stick by it.
8. You're polite, friendly, and enjoy interacting with other people
9. If you criticize, or correct.. it's constructive criticism
10. You ALWAYS say thank you.
The bad way --
1. You constantly bait, flame, and swear in the forums.
2. Your posts are frequently off-topic, your questions unrelated, or repeated.
3. You post "This [insert brand/mod here] Sucks! Don't get one!" without saying WHY.
4. You like to see your name on the screen, so you
Reply to requests, already answered ..
Re-ask your question.. after only an hour ..
Start a new thread to answer a question
5. When asked for more information, you don't reply.
6. You ask the same question.. in multiple forums.
7. You reopen topics, closed by moderation.
8. You NEVER say thank you.
The good way --
1. You're extremely helpful to other members.
2. You never respond to trolls or flame other users.
3. Your posts stick to the forum topic.
4. You never ever post just for the sake of posting
5. You remain reasonable when things get heated.
6. You know what it means to "Agree to disagree".
7. Pick a story and stick by it.
8. You're polite, friendly, and enjoy interacting with other people
9. If you criticize, or correct.. it's constructive criticism
10. You ALWAYS say thank you.
The bad way --
1. You constantly bait, flame, and swear in the forums.
2. Your posts are frequently off-topic, your questions unrelated, or repeated.
3. You post "This [insert brand/mod here] Sucks! Don't get one!" without saying WHY.
4. You like to see your name on the screen, so you
Reply to requests, already answered ..
Re-ask your question.. after only an hour ..
Start a new thread to answer a question
5. When asked for more information, you don't reply.
6. You ask the same question.. in multiple forums.
7. You reopen topics, closed by moderation.
8. You NEVER say thank you.
Good Forum Etiquette
I think the disagree thing is best addressed after several more weeks of accumulated experience. Right now it's a new, novelty item. As it's publicly known who is giving what "rating", if there are signs of abuse it's easily dealt with between the members. If it turns into an off the rails train wreck, then it needs to go. I don't think that's going to happen, and a reflexive yank it out action isn't needed at this point. Other than satisfying requests from members who wanted a red x (yeah, people can be weird sometimes, but who am I to judge), I've only used it in and actual discussion where I had a difference in opinion with a member, who I have great respect for, but was not in agreement. They posted, I responded in a post, they responded in a post, and we moved on. I think that's pretty much how it was meant to be used, and it served its purpose.
If there are those who use it in a trolling manner, I'd address it with that individual and not change the whole forum setup around. Adding something to the good way/bad way list of Retired1's list would also help balance things out, as there are now 10 good ways and 8 bad ways, and now we'd have 9 bad ways.
If there are those who use it in a trolling manner, I'd address it with that individual and not change the whole forum setup around. Adding something to the good way/bad way list of Retired1's list would also help balance things out, as there are now 10 good ways and 8 bad ways, and now we'd have 9 bad ways.
Forum Rules
11. Trolling ('fishing expeditions' in search of a strong reaction)
Trolling includes but is not restricted to:
- Posting something deliberately inflammatory - either to start a 'flame war' or simply to cause difficulties for the Moderators.
- Engaging in behaviour which is disruptive to the general operation of the Forum.
- Deliberately posting something which is against our forum rules.
- Flooding the board with comments coming from a single point of view in multiple posts.
- Posting snide comments about another member.
- Posting repeated criticism of Moderators or their moderation activities.
- Comments that insult people on the basis of their sexual orientation, religion, race, nationality, or country of origin.
Perhaps simply adding underneath this an all encompassing :
"Abuse of any forum function could result in the loss of that function."
That way it would include posts, blogs, tags, signatures, likes, conversations - any forum function.
I am all for simplifying the rules. For a verified member there are 16 pages of them, yes I printed them.
Condensing them down and relying on the good judgement of the Mods would be a great thing. But with that I also believe that an objective appeals process (offline) would be appropriate, as even the Mods are human.
The sad thing - saying "please, just don't do that" only gets the response of "it's not in your rules".
So, a rule gets created/amended to protect members and keep a good environment.
Behavior behind a keyboard sometimes amazes me ! It makes me wonder what ever happened to plain old common sense. If it isn't spelled out...well neener-neener - I'm gonna do it.
Yes, Mods (and Admin) are human.
I would say tho that almost all of the time things are discussed among us prior to anything happening. It's always been that way.
( we have a live chat type of thing where we 'cuss and discuss')
There is always a conversation to be started or the Contact Us at the bottom of the forum.
OK, shooting from the shoulder:
IMHO creating rules from hell promotes the neener-neener behavior. An alternative is to use simplified rules like your "Abuse of any forum function could result in the loss of that function.". Accompany that with a "Good Forum Etiquette" post that Mods can point to when counseling members.
We are all adults here, by ECF requirement, so hold members responsible to acting like adults with respect and civility to one another. Those who cant/wont could be subject to a "3 strikes and you are out" policy. Most of us here dont want another VU, so we attempt to be civil and respectful. Creating a rule book that rivals a government statute only holds people to the letter of the law. Trolls love that, they can find the loopholes and wreak havoc while singing neener-neener. Holding people responsible to "core principles" can actually change the membership mindset. Members should be held accountable to act like adults, and respect the core principles of the Forum. If they refuse, send them packing.
This is only my opinion, YMMV.......
Regarding Mod discussions about actions. I fully believe this occurs, and have observed it from the bits that get made public. The challenge, from a Members POV, is that the rules say we are not allowed to object to a decision. I am suggesting a formal process open to those who think they have been unfairly deemed a supplier, or kicked off the Forum, or whatever. One where the member could be assured he/she will be heard objectively, eliminating any perception of a personality conflict between a certain Mod/Member. Right now members feel like a given Mods word is final, even if that Mod was having a bad day or whatever. Frankly, using the "Contact Us" function doesnt give us a warm fuzzy of an "objective" appraisal, IMHO something more formal would be more reassuring.
WOW.. I am amazed. Seriously I am. I love knowledge, but I skimmed, very very lightly what the rules were when I joined. When I accidentally broke a rule and then had it pointed out to be, I then only read the specific part of the rule which applied to what I did wrong.
I can safely say, I really don't know any of the fine points of the rules here, most of how the board is ran, is simple good etiquette and manners for polite (or sometimes not so polite.. lol) society. Basically, if that is not how you would act or something you would say to your neighbor in the grocery store, don't say it here.
So honestly. I am a bit surprised that anyone has actually printed out and poured over the rules here.. lol. Even for the classies I only skimmed and hit the high points.
lol.. maybe I shouldn't be saying this with so many mods running around..
I did so because I am very active on the forum, often on controversial topics, and especially back in the co-op days, I wanted to be sure I wasnt breaking any of the rules. Some of those co-ops were $15k of other peoples money, I took that responsibility seriously.
If I am going to be held accountable to a rule set, then I need to know what they are. Some of them go beyond "good etiquette and manners" and prohibit very specific things that are not allowed to be discussed or done, even civilly.
ETA: This is an excerpt from the Classified Rules:
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I agree with the first part... but not the last paragraph.
A short and sweet list of rules with one of them being that everyone must act like adults and be civil and respectful of others but without having to define what "being adult", "civil" and/or "respectful" ... should actually make it easier to follow for most people. The longer the list gets, the harder it becomes to follow and even keep up with.
The part I don't agree with has to do with the decisions the admins and mods end up making. Those decisions need to be final and if someone is in disagreement with them, that discussion should be in private and not open for public debate. Being a little bit dictatorial, keeps the arguments from getting out of hand. People must know they have to follow the "house rules" with few exceptions.
I never suggested it be open for public debate, that would be a nightmare. I suggested an "objective private appeal process".
Gosh I hope not. Not all of us have the visual acuity of a 27 yr old fighter pilot. Now that we have a plethora of like icon buttons and they are 80% transparent (not to mention that 500 of them would fit on the head of a pin) I have a real difficult time picking the correct one. The undo button has saved me so far but I’d hate to get banned for missing something I can barely see on a good day.
With all due respect - Sir . . . I both disagree and agree with the quoted posts above . . .
(Will take too much typing to explain and want to keep this post simple . . .
)EDIT: Given the ongoing conversation about this - really glad I kept it short - there would be many more disagrees then there would be agrees with other post of some people . . .
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Ah... I didn't get that portion on first read... but certainly the discussion could be in a conversation ( PM ) where more than the two ( the OP and mod/admin ) could take place. I could see that as an option.
@Uncle - I be confused, but thats ok.
These were simply my opinions, many based on previous incidents I have observed here.
And I apologize, I evolved rather off-topic.
These were simply my opinions, many based on previous incidents I have observed here.
And I apologize, I evolved rather off-topic.
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