So I could turn out to be full of it here.

[Punk In Drublic]

All in all this resic, post: 21588019, member: 336281"]The initial thread on Radiator coils was not posted when I made that response - which will admit I did not fully think it through. But Boden thread does not make sense.

Oh, but it does make sense.


If you´re building contact coils of the same length and diameter, wire gauge doesnt really matter when it comes to total surface area. The difference is definitly NOT significant. The vaping myth of "thick wire means more surface area" is incredibly short sighted and borderline dumb. You get large surface area by building large coils; not by using 20G.

You dont have to believe me on hot air out of my mouth alone; I´ll math it for you:
Wire 1 has a thickness of 0,5mm; wire 2 has a thickness of 1mm. (Random numbers for easier calculations; also, I´m a scientist and from Europe, so Gauges can go f... themselves). If I want to build a coil of the same size I need double the amount of wraps of wire 1, so I need roughly double the length of the wire (say 20cm of 0,5 and 10cm of 1mm wire) to get the same size for the finished coil.
Total surface area will calculate as follows:
Wire 1: 0,5 x 20 000 = 10 000
Wire 2: 1,0 x 10 000 = 10 000
They are the same. (Yes, factor 2π is missing; but this is the same for both calculations anyway)

Now for volume (which, in the end, equals mass):
Wire 1: π x 0,5² x 20 000 = 5000π
Wire 2: π x 1,0² * 10 000 = 10 000π
The thicker wire build has double the volume/mass.


He doesnt mean coil temperature, but the temperature of the vapor. Thinner wire builds running cooler can be explained by the fact that thinner wire has a higher efficiency then thicker wire. By that I mean that more of the applied energy is used to vaporize liquid instead of heating your atty and the air above your coils. More vapor production with same energy means better cooling, as vaporisation just cools stuff. Lick hand and blow on it for example.

Thick wire has more metal thats further away from your wick (if that makes sense) and this "excess" will be heating the air above your coil more then actually using the energy to heat/vaporize liquid. This is also the main reason why thin is more efficient in the first place.

All in all; this explains why thick wire = warmer vape[/QUOTE]
_________________________________________________________
You are calculating the width of the coil, not the surface area. Using your numbers where wire 1 = 0.5mm and wire 2 = 1mm and winding around a 4mm ID jig to achieve 8mm wide coil, wire 1 would have a surface area of 408 mm² and wire 2 would be 528 mm². Both coils have the same width, but with wire 2 being a larger wire, your surface area increases.

So it is not a vaping myth, it is how each wire is applied. Now if we were to increase the ID of wire 1 to 5mm, the surface area would be equal. OR, we could increase the width of the coil for wire 1 to roughly 12mm wide to achieve the same surface area. But both these actions have an effect on the coil.

As for mass, that I am not disputing. But mass is not the same as volume. We can achieve the same volume with 0.5mm Kanthal vs 0.5mm Ni80, but the mass for the same length of wire will be different. Saying that, if using the same metal, say Kanthal, 0.5mm wire around a 4mm jig for an 8mm wide coil will result in a lower mass than 1mm wire around the same 4mm jig for the same 8mm width coil.

Your final comment on efficiency and temperature of the vapor makes sense. But up to a certain degree. You apply too much power to a low mass coil and you end up burning. Too little power to a high mass coil and you may not even vaporize the juice. So how does one test low vs high mass coils by using the same applied power. That is what does not make sense.

I am a firm believer in keeping mass at a minimal while trying to achieve the highest possible surface area, but there are always compromises. Saying that, I applaud Boden for this radiator coil concept

 

[Zakillah]

Why yes, of course you have to compare stuff like this by using the same materials, or else it wont make any sense.
The surface area you gain by using thicker wire (which isnt all that much to begin with) is mostly useless anyway because you just heat air with it. And you can build for the same outer diameter (because in the end that is what determines if you can fit it in your atty or not) instead of inner, in which case you can increase the inner diameter of the thin wire coil and get closer to the same total surface area again.

Yeah, you need to build for your desired vape experience. I´m not saying build a 0,2mm wire 5 wrap and throw 50W on it.
But I´ve vaped 0,2mm wire builds (just triple paralleled, no twisting/braiding) at 80W without burning. Yes, it was ALOT of wraps. Yes, it works. Yes, it produces lots of vapor. Yes, it runs cool. Pretty much everything I want in my vape experience.
If you like warmer vapor or not like to fiddle with thin wire it makes sense to use thicker wire and not go all out efficiency crazy like I do. Not saying what I do is good for everyone.

 

[tj99959]

Are you trying to tell me that, if I like one thing better when compared to another thing, I can't define it as such?

It would only be better in your mind, and not necessarily for anyone else
(your "subjective" opinion of being better)

 

[tj99959]

I don’t disagree with that. The issue is people doing it are going to die. That in itself makes it worthwhile, but aside from that, then dying also makes great negative press for BT to use. I didn’t have proof that both things were true though I was saying them anyway like a bunch of other people and even if they had proof I didn’t so I went to go get some. By not proving both points completely I sorta burned myself. Hence the thread title.

I assume by that you mean mechanical mods with low resistance coils.
The whole reason behind the modern box mod is to safely do what was unsafe with a mechanical.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

The surface area you gain by using thicker wire (which isnt all that much to begin with) is mostly useless anyway because you just heat air with it.

If I may ask, do you have any objective data that can put a figure to this? If there is fact to this then surely, we should be able to calculate a percentage that correlates with the size of the wire. At what point does the gauge (diameter) of a wire loose it’s effectiveness in producing vapor and start contributing to wasted heat? Does airflow have an effect on this? With the elongated shape of the radiator coil, it seems (to me) to take advantage of airflow. Could this concept be applied to a wire of more mass with positive results? (I’m asking, not questioning!!).

Looking at Boden’s tests and doing some quick calculations, one of my preferred fused Claptons comes out with a lower mass than his 3x 28 awg radiator coil and not much higher than his 30awg triple parallel using his prescribed dimensions. So how does that compare with his other test candidates?

There has to be a point of diminishing returns which I do not believe has been defined. And just to clarify, I am not debating the efficiency of a low mass coil, just trying to set a base line.

 

[bombastinator]

You dont have to believe me on hot air out of my mouth alone; I´ll math it for you:

Yay! I’m terrible at math

Wire 1 has a thickness of 0,5mm; wire 2 has a thickness of 1mm. (Random numbers for easier calculations; also, I´m a scientist and from Europe, so Gauges can go f... themselves). If I want to build a coil of the same size I need double the amount of wraps of wire 1, so I need roughly double the length of the wire (say 20cm of 0,5 and 10cm of 1mm wire) to get the same size for the finished coil.
Total surface area will calculate as follows:
Wire 1: 0,5 x 20 000 = 10 000
Wire 2: 1,0 x 10 000 = 10 000
They are the same. (Yes, factor 2π is missing; but this is the same for both calculations anyway)

Now for volume (which, in the end, equals mass):
Wire 1: π x 0,5² x 20 000 = 5000π
Wire 2: π x 1,0² * 10 000 = 10 000π
The thicker wire build has double the volume/mass.

Circles have the largest volume vs surface area of any shape. They’re an infinite number of triangles wedged together (Geometry I’m better at. It’s visual. The way I finally got through calc on the third try was converting stuff to geometry so the numbers made sense)
So what I really want for my radiator coils is the pointiest (hey! My phone actually thinks that’s a word!) shaped wire I can find. I’ve heard they make square wire. I wonder if they make triangular stuff?

He doesnt mean coil temperature, but the temperature of the vapor. Thinner wire builds running cooler can be explained by the fact that thinner wire has a higher efficiency then thicker wire. By that I mean that more of the applied energy is used to vaporize liquid instead of heating your atty and the air above your coils. More vapor production with same energy means better cooling, as vaporisation just cools stuff. Lick hand and blow on it for example.

so high surface area wire would make the vapor even cooler. The unusually cool vapor of mesh coils is starting to make sense. I always assumed a warm vape came from warm juice, but the liquid is always going to be the same temperature of course. Boiling point temperature.

Thick wire has more metal thats further away from your wick (if that makes sense)

it does. Not very far away though. An exotic coil has lots of metal even farther away though. So an exotic coil is “super hot” not because it vaporizes more juice, but because it heats more air! (They so need a “head exploding” emoji here) The ultra wacky exotics are starting to make more sense.

and this "excess" will be heating the air above your coil more then actually using the energy to heat/vaporize liquid. This is the main reason why thin is more efficient in the first place. Another reason is that you loose more heat/energy that goes into the posts where your coil is mounted. Thick wire leads to more heat escaping into the posts of the atty.

which then heats the tank itself heating more air as well as the mod and your fingers

All in all; this explains why thick wire = warmer vape

It really does! I knew all the pieces I just wasn’t putting them together right. You deserve more win than just one star can provide!

 

[bombastinator]

I assume by that you mean mechanical mods with low resistance coils.
The whole reason behind the modern box mod is to safely do what was unsafe with a mechanical.

I do, I think. VV mods still have some all be it much much smaller safety issues in that if for whatever reason their safety cut offs don’t work things could go south in a hurry.

 

[diagrammatiks]

because people are people but physics happens anyway. I thought my 0.10 build would stay at 0.10. It didn’t. Might make me an ignorant builder but that happens too. I also couldn’t make a chem lab experiment work to save my life in college but my dad did the stuff for a living. Safety margins are good.

Point. I forgot that about SS.

You getting that high wattage flavor improvement though? How much?

I mean maybe? Hotter vape, more clouds, slightly more flavor then the profile.

It’s ok. Although atm I’m perfectly happy vaping flavorless 50mg from my sxmini mi so maybe I’m not the best judge anymore.

 

[dripster]

It would only be better in your mind, and not necessarily for anyone else
(your "subjective" opinion of being better)

So much is obvious, as that's the whole point of flavor chasing. If you can experience something that is both subjective by nature and real, then you can form an honest opinion on that, and that would be a valid opinion because it is honest, but in the OP's case we are dealing with hollow statements based purely on his dishonest opinions and/or obvious delusions, as he is judging a whole number of coil TYPES that he's never even tried before.

 

[bombastinator]

It would only be better in your mind, and not necessarily for anyone else
(your "subjective" opinion of being better)

I’m tempted to relate plato’s Allegory of the cave here. It’s kind of cool though it’s as much a screed on why “philosopherz rulz!” As anything else.
Allegory of the Cave - Wikipedia

 

[bombastinator]

I mean maybe? Hotter vape, more clouds, slightly more flavor then the profile.

It’s ok. Although atm I’m perfectly happy vaping flavorless 50mg from my sxmini mi so maybe I’m not the best judge anymore.

Plus I’m seeing reports of drastically improved coil life for flavorless

 

[Zakillah]

If I may ask, do you have any objective data that can put a figure to this? If there is fact to this then surely, we should be able to calculate a percentage that correlates with the size of the wire. At what point does the gauge (diameter) of a wire loose it’s effectiveness in producing vapor and start contributing to wasted heat? Does airflow have an effect on this? With the elongated shape of the radiator coil, it seems (to me) to take advantage of airflow. Could this concept be applied to a wire of more mass with positive results? (I’m asking, not questioning!!).

Looking at Boden’s tests and doing some quick calculations, one of my preferred fused Claptons comes out with a lower mass than his 3x 28 awg radiator coil and not much higher than his 30awg triple parallel using his prescribed dimensions. So how does that compare with his other test candidates?

There has to be a point of diminishing returns which I do not believe has been defined. And just to clarify, I am not debating the efficiency of a low mass coil, just trying to set a base line.

I cant go any further then what I´ve already wrote, because I dont have any exact numbers. As much as I love to geek out over stuff; at a certain point its just enough.
The main point to take away is the fact that thin wire runs cooler and produces more vapor and thick wire runs hotter and produces less vapor for the same power output. What people make of it (or if they even "believe it" in the first place) is their thing.
Just one thing....There is a reason why most builders went from like 26/32G Claptons to using much thinner wires. At least for the wraps. Because fat Claptons run stupid hot and thinner wraps make the vape much better.

Comparing fused Claptons to regular wire builds in terms of surface area/mass/efficiency is also something I wont touch, because there is too much stuff to consider and, frankly, stuff I just dont know. Unfortunetly Boden used a badly designed FC with way too thick wires. Would be interesting to see how a 3x30G wrapped in 38-40G performs compared to, lets say, a 30G round build.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I cant go any further then what I´ve already wrote, because I dont have any exact numbers. As much as I love to geek out over stuff; at a certain point its just enough.
The main point to take away is the fact that thin wire runs cooler and produces more vapor and thick wire runs hotter and produces less vapor for the same power output. What people make of it (or if they even "believe it" in the first place) is their thing.
Just one thing....There is a reason why most builders went from like 26/32G Claptons to using much thinner wires. At least for the wraps. Because fat Claptons run stupid hot and thinner wraps make the vape much better.

Comparing fused Claptons to regular wire builds in terms of surface area/mass/efficiency is also something I wont touch, because there is too much stuff to consider and, frankly, stuff I just dont know. Unfortunetly Boden used a badly designed FC with way too thick wires. Would be interesting to see how a 3x30G wrapped in 38-40G performs compared to, lets say, a 30G round build.

This is can be true – we adjust power based on the mass of the coil. If 3x 30awg in parallel comes out to a lower mass than say a single 26awg of similar surface area, then of course it is going to operate more efficiently at lower wattages. But that is not to say it is the better of the 2 coils or that the larger gauge is wasting heat. In fact with the later, if the proper power is not applied, it may not even generate the needed heat to vaporize. This is what I found confusing with Boden’s test – he compared coils of vastly different mass’s but used the same power for all. I don’t know about anyone else but the reason I use a variable wattage device is so I can adjust the power to my liking based on the mass of the coil.

And yes there are extremes. Claptons, especially of the multi core type that are wrapped with a lower awg can employ a huge amount of mass! BUT….I do not believe one should use the same brush to paint all Clapton type coils with.

You brought up 3x 30awg cores wrapped in a 40awg – well, the Clapton I mentioned above is 4x30awg wrapped in 40awg. It’s a design that maximizes surface area while trying to keep mass at a minimal. I do not like hot vape and run this wire in a single coil RDA between 40 and 50 watts depending on RDA and how many wraps.

But what is beneficial with this is that it’s resistance can fall within a comfortable range for any given device. If we use one of Boden test subjects, 3x 30awg around 4mm ID to achieve 8.4mm in width, this coil comes out to ~1.5 ohms. At 66 watts that will require 10 volts! To me, this is not very efficient assuming the device is even able to produce that kind of voltage. There are obvious ways to deal with this such as reducing the number of wraps, but now you are reducing surface area and it is no longer comparable to something of a larger awg. Or, you can use 2 coils in parallel, but now you have increased mass, therefore require more power.

There is always a compromise which is why I find it difficult to make such comparisons. It is never apples to apples, and by matching one parameter between 2 subjects, such as surface area, we effectively change something else such as resistance, mass or even heat flux (which was not even mentioned). Match heat flux and the power requirement changes which I am willing to bet once the power has been adjusted accordingly, many test subjects become more equal in comparison (sans the extremes of course!) and any differences may not even be detectable.

 

[MacTechVpr]

If I may ask, do you have any objective data that can put a figure to this? If there is fact to this then surely, we should be able to calculate a percentage that correlates with the size of the wire. At what point does the gauge (diameter) of a wire loose it’s effectiveness in producing vapor and start contributing to wasted heat? Does airflow have an effect on this? With the elongated shape of the radiator coil, it seems (to me) to take advantage of airflow. Could this concept be applied to a wire of more mass with positive results? (I’m asking, not questioning!!).

Looking at Boden’s tests and doing some quick calculations, one of my preferred fused Claptons comes out with a lower mass than his 3x 28 awg radiator coil and not much higher than his 30awg triple parallel using his prescribed dimensions. So how does that compare with his other test candidates?

There has to be a point of diminishing returns which I do not believe has been defined. And just to clarify, I am not debating the efficiency of a low mass coil, just trying to set a base line.

At the point that it's not doing work, i.e. contributing directly to vaporization. An example is lead length loss; or extranous mass…

(My well thought out response here encompassing a succinct paragraph was wiped with no cache preserved. It hurts my head to try and understand how this so consistently happens at the most inconvenient time.)

I may be wordy but I utterly hate to repeat myself at the expense of lost sleep at this point. Even sadly if it's for all you fine folks.

Good luck.

 

[bombastinator]

At the point that it's not doing work, i.e. contributing directly to vaporization. An example is lead length loss; or extranous mass…

(My well thought out response here encompassing a succinct paragraph was wiped with no cache preserved. It hurts my head to try and understand how this so consistently happens at the most inconvenient time.)

I may be wordy but I utterly hate to repeat myself at the expense of lost sleep at this point. Even sadly if it's for all you fine folks.

Good luck.

I dunno. It might be. Not vaporizing juice of course, but there’s warmth of the vape to consider, and also that flavor change which may have to do with hot air. I’m curious about the flavor change. There may be a better way to get it than exotic coils though. Need to know what it is first though.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I dunno. It might be. Not vaporizing juice of course, but there’s warmth of the vape to consider, and also that flavor change which may have to do with hot air. I’m curious about the flavor change. There may be a better way to get it than exotic coils though. Need to know what it is first though.

Funny B, I seem to distinctly hear this soft echo in the back of my head harkening back to the Spring of '13. Somebody asking pretty much the same question. Back in the day, when we were all winding 6-turns on a wet noodle and it was all just about the wutt.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

More vapor, more flavor; but yes…high heat can diminish flavor perception.
So watts alone can never be the single volume button we rely on.

Good luck.

 

[bombastinator]

Funny B, I seem to distinctly hear this soft echo in the back of my head harkening back to the Spring of '13. Somebody asking pretty much the same question. Back in the day, when we were all winding 6-turns on a wet noodle and it was all just about the wutt.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

More vapor, more flavor; but yes…high heat can diminish flavor perception.
So watts alone can never be the single volume button we rely on.

Good luck.

Heh. It’s a chemistry problem which I’m even worse at than electronics. This place make me want to go to school again. The irony is this like the other thing has probably been researched and is known. It’s just that the science was done by corporations and as a result no one is talking.

 

[tara81]

I didn’t read the entire thread, so this may have already been mentioned, but wouldn’t the triple mesh pro tank generally have better flavour then the dual Clapton’s in flavour at 50-80 watts? Maybe even the falcon double mesh?

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Flavor / taste is such a subjective individual preference there simply is no ' this beats that ' or ' good, better, best '.
Then there is the how much time & effort a person is willing to invest in experimenting with the hundreds of variables to find their personal 'best'.

For some, an old rebuilt prostank 1.2Ω at 8w is their nirvana, or a nautilus bvc, maybe a simple 2 strands twisted, others find a
superultragamechangermacroquadtwistedbraidedalienclaptonfudgemastermegameshelabro coils is theirs.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I didn’t read the entire thread, so this may have already been mentioned, but wouldn’t the triple mesh pro tank generally have better flavour then the dual Clapton’s in flavour at 50-80 watts? Maybe even the falcon double mesh?

Good question. The term “beat” or better is very subjective. However, the logical answer to your question is no. For one, there are so many variances in which we can configure mesh and or a Clapton coil so difficult to state that 1 is always better than the other. Second, utilizing mesh requires a specific design in atomizer which itself can influence the results. There is much more to producing good flavour than just the physics of the coil – air flow has a huge influence.