Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[untar]

They don't have to ban the batteries, they just have to ban devices that are made to take those batteries...
Yes, a handful of veterans would still be able to modify them to accept the batteries again or make mods from flashlights like years ago, but compare the size of the vape market then and now.
It'd be internal batteries and nothing else with mechs gone by default.

 

[440BB]

This study will be used to justify restricting removable battery vaping devices. Associating most battery incidents with ecigs may have more traction than the theoretical basis for limiting pods and flavors. Although the results may be skewed, these incidents do happen at times and sadly are often caused by negligent or uneducated vapers. Combined with the occasional headline about individual incidents, (almost always blaming the ecig), public opinion will be further influenced to support device and vaping restrictions.

We never see headlines about flashlights. It's likely flashlight users aren't carrying them 24/7 and need spare batteries, but in reality there's nobody with an agenda to eliminate flashlights. No "studies" are being funded targeting them as far as I know.

A simple yet fairly effective solution would be requiring all external lithium batteries be sold to consumers in a silicone sleeve with printed warnings. Unfortunately, I think the target for the FDA is the devices themselves.

 

[untar]

We never see headlines about flashlights.

Oh it's in the media when it happens
flashlight explodes - Google Search
and even before LiIon was a widespread thing
CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Exploding Flashlights (97-149)

But it doesn't look like smoking

 

[stols001]

We could just ban cigarettes, then teens wouldn't "take to them" in later life, etc. IDK I will say nicotine HAS to have some effect on the developing brain, it's a bit standard procedure to note that things consumed/exposed to in earlier life can have a profound effect sometime the younger the worse, I mean look at some in vitro stuff.

If there were ONE argument that could be made with any type of cogency regarding teen vaping, it would be that one: early exposure to nicotine being more harmful the younger the age, although I can't say I've seen extensive studies on it like you do children of methadone/opiates etc. So it it is at present a hard argument to make especially given the length of time vaping has been around.

From my very first view of an exploding battery I kind of thought that might be something to bite the ecig industry. And not because other things DO NOT explode, they most emphatically do but can you imagine a "cellphone" ban being implemented across the US, I mean there would be riots.

Ecigs are vulnerable, to pretty much ANY argument the FDA/Politicians want to make, because it's simply a smaller segment of the population. Ecig users are going to look at exploding ecigs and go, "Dang I remember when that happened to me," OR "I sure HOPE that never happens to me," but they have some sort of "lens" from which to view it correctly.

The general populace has no such "lens" and so using these types of incidents to implement an ecig strategy is FAR easier, and the government has FAR less to lose, because the majority of folks either don't' know enough to recognize the fallacies, and/or just go for blind obedience as to, "This must be right."

I'm fairly certain most parents discovering a Juul in their kid's backpack don't sit down for a long and wise perusal of the literature, pro and con, for ecigs as harm reduction with a side order of
"This is my teen's risk taking brain" biology and parenting course, etc., they probably just freak out and the call a PTA meeting where the idea of "Juuling" is spread thoughout the teens in the school if it isn't already.

I will say this, FDA. You can't demonize the Juul and external batteries at the same time. I do not think I have EVER heard of an exploding Juul period let alone one that caused damage. The battery is too puny. So, I invite you to pick one, but you cannot have BOTH.

I mean it's the government, of course they can have both, but it would be incredibly obnoxious, to be quite frank.
Anna

 

[Baditude]

And yet more ammunition for the FDA.

"Almost all the injuries were burns (97%, 95% CI 93%-100%), and the majority of injuries occurred on the upper leg (61%, 95% CI 45%-77%), followed by the hand/fingers (25%, 95% CI 9%-42%)."

Those findings suggest more user error than unsafe/defective gear or batteries.

Upper leg burns suggests bare batteries being carried in pants pockets that contained keys or coins that allowed the batteries to short circuit. That's user error from not practicing safe battery habits. Everyone should know to carry spare batteries in a protective nonconductive case. The govenment shouldn't be able to ban something because of knuckleheads' stupidity.

This study doesn't seem to specify the type of gear or batteries used. The reports that I have seen reported in the news are almost always mech mods that do not have built-in protection circuitry which became pipe bombs. And we rarely learn which batteries were being used. I'd guess that a large number of mech users were using Chinese brands with inflated amp ratings.

 

[MyMagicMist]

A simple yet fairly effective solution would be requiring all external lithium batteries be sold to consumers in a silicone sleeve with printed warnings.

Buying my batteries via IMR, an online vendor. They ship their batteries in plastic boxes inside cardboard boxes. Included in the packaging is a printed out two sided warnings and safe handling instructions card.

I agree with you that Feds likely seek to ban devices. A good bit of industries are already regulating themselves, or are pressured to follow consumer advocacy groups best practices standards of being regulated. The industries had started doing this when I come into vaping almost three years ago or so. There was no need for government intervention, really.

 

[DPLongo22]

Damn.
Looks like a three pronged attack - "Nicotine addiction" and flavors to protect the children and batteries (often mishandled outside of a device) to protect the rest of us.
Feels like a vise is closing.

Every RIGID 18v tool too (among many other things). That's one of my main reasons for sticking with 18650 mods. I think they'll have problems with all batteries, but I figured no harm is sticking to ones that are already in heavy use elsewhere.

Time will tell, I (we) guess.

Orange jumpsuits. ALL of 'em.

 

[Eskie]

Well the 20X series was designed for auto use, so I expect they'll remain around as well. What will happen is no more mechs on the open market. Maybe an unregulated with protection circuits, but that's about the farthest I see them leaving on the market. Not to say you can't make your own mech or get one from overseas but retail sales will be eliminated. It's too bad, but I can't see them doing anything else.

 

[Rossum]

Well the 20X series was designed for auto use so I expect they'll remain around as well.

There is exactly one car company that uses them. In fact, they they are the only car company that uses cylindrical cells. Their balance sheet looks rather precarious, and their CEO/Chairman himself in a good bit or trouble with the "Shortseller Enrichment Commission" recently.

That said, it's entirely possible we'll start to see them used in power tools. There's got to be a reason why Murata (formerly Sony) is now making those cells. AFAIK, they have no relationship with the above car maker. But for now, 18650s are still a safer choice due to their ubiquitous nature.

 

[mikepetro]

Lipos will always be available for the R/C hobby crowd. That's what I use almost exclusivly.


My thoughts on the Lipo dilemma. | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[gnees]

FYI,

for those that may not know. We lost a great person.

Rest in Peace Robino1

 

[hittman]

Thanks for sharing that link. I had no idea.

 

[gerrymi]

If multiple teens use ecigs and use wacky tobacky then that's a fact. Concluding that one leads to the other is a conclusion not supported by that data alone.

Isn't that the ol' "Mashed Potatoes Theory"???

98% of murderers have eaten mashed potatoes in the week prior to committing their crime...

THEREFORE...eating mashed potatoes leads to murder...

..

 

[Baditude]

Lipos will always be available for the R/C hobby crowd. That's what I use almost exclusivly.
My thoughts on the Lipo dilemma. | E-Cigarette Forum

Good read and thanks for sharing.

I agree that all batteries should be used within the parameters that they were designed for. The cylindrical Li-ion batteries (18650 et al) are designed to be used only in battery packs with BMS (battery management systems that include protection circuitry) in the portable power tool industry.

battery pack with BMS


As vapers, we have "reluctantly" "borrowed" that technology for our own uses in mods because of their exceptional power in portable devices. We accept the risks using them in order to vape the way we choose to. Hopefully, that acceptance comes with some battery knowledge and some common sense to avoid potential injuries and property damage.

But having said that, LiPo battery chemistry is much more volatile and likely to fail spectacularly when compared to the "safer chemistry" of today's IMR-hybrid cells. Our newer Li-ion cells are much more likely to just vent gas than flame or explode like LiPo's can. Chemistry-wise, Lipo's are arguably the most dangerous. Nobody would be foolish enough to use a Lipo in a mechanical mod.


Internal Lipo battery explodes and flames spectacularly while charging in a mod caught on security cam.

There are pro's and con's for both types of batteries. Whichever type of battery we choose to use, we have to accept that they are all potentially dangerous and to use them wisely.

 

[untar]

There's gonna be at least one of the elected aristocrats that won't be able to stand the thought of trusting the peasant's ability of handling batteries. Essentially it's gonna be some form of kid-safe-for-adults BS.
I'm quite surprised that of all countries it's the US pondering such thoughts...

 

[mikepetro]

Good read and thanks for sharing.

I agree that all batteries should be used within the parameters that they were designed for. The cylindrical Li-ion batteries (18650 et al) are designed to be used only in battery packs with BMS (battery management systems that include protection circuitry) in the portable power tool industry.

battery pack with BMS


As vapers, we have "reluctantly" "borrowed" that technology for our own uses in mods because of their exceptional power in portable devices. We accept the risks using them in order to vape the way we choose to. Hopefully, that acceptance comes with some battery knowledge and some common sense to avoid potential injuries and property damage.

But having said that, LiPo battery chemistry is much more volatile and likely to fail spectacularly when compared to the "safer chemistry" of today's IMR-hybrid cells. Our newer Li-ion cells are much more likely to just vent gas than flame or explode like LiPo's can. Chemistry-wise, Lipo's are arguably the most dangerous. Nobody would be foolish enough to use a Lipo in a mechanical mod.


Internal Lipo battery explodes and flames spectacularly while charging in a mod caught on security cam.

There are pro's and con's for both types of batteries. Whichever type of battery we choose to use, we have to accept that they are all potentially dangerous and to use them wisely.

Everything is relative. As I stressed in my Blog, Education is the most important element.

Just about every cell phone on the market, and many laptops, cameras, etc use Lipo batteries. What do they all have in common, the BMS you referred to. DNA boards also have the BMS built in.

Yes, there was the Samsung debacle, and plenty of R/C spectacles, but Lipo tech is very mainstream, and also IMHO safe if used in a proper device within its design specs.

As for SMOK devices, well, you get what you pay for.

 

[Hoggy]

We never see headlines about flashlights. It's likely flashlight users aren't carrying them 24/7 and need spare batteries, but in reality there's nobody with an agenda to eliminate flashlights.

I was a bit hesitant to mention this earlier, but yes.. Yes, I do EDC (every day cary) Li-Ion flashlights every time I go out (albeit that's not too often these days). I always EDC several at a time in a mix of 10440, 14500, and 18650 formats. And also have dozens stashed around the apartment.

Because I'm also what is know as a 'flashaholic'. And there is actually an entire forum for us at CandlePowerForums. And most of us there EDC Li-Ion flashlights.
Although in my defense, I am usually up all night and asleep during the day - so I live by artificial light.

Unfortunately, several times one of my 10440's came loose with the battery in my pocket. Needless to say, I crank that sucker up tight now - and it hasn't happened since. But I do check it more often now.

I can imagine it now.. People with their pitchforks and torches saying "we must ban flashlights!"
Why? Because, umm, it uses a tobacco product! Yes, that's the ticket!

........

And let's not forget the massive recall by Dell due to laptops that were spontaneously catching fire. So now we must ban laptops!
And think I recall some cell phone recalls due to spontaneous flare-ups. So now we must ban cell phones!
And why? Because they're all using those deadly tobacco products!

Ugh! The sheer stupidity of anti-vapers just really pisses me off to no end.

 

[DPLongo22]

Isn't that the ol' "Mashed Potatoes Theory"???

98% of murderers have eaten mashed potatoes in the week prior to committing their crime...

THEREFORE...eating mashed potatoes leads to murder...

..

"Cancer causes cell phones."

 

[Baditude]

Just about every cell phone on the market, and many laptops, cameras, etc use Lipo batteries. What do they all have in common, the BMS you referred to. DNA boards also have the BMS built in.

As for SMOK devices, well, you get what you pay for.

I often wonder if the DNA boards offer any more safety protection than the run-of-the-mill protection circuitry that all regulated mods supposively offer. I hear DNA boards are allegedly more energy efficient in their battery use, and my own DNA mod seems to confirm that. I don't know if they are actually safer, but I honestly can't recall reading about any DNA mod catching on fire or exploding.

Hypothetical question. So if the FDA decides to regulate the use of regulated mods, should only DNA mods be allowed? Obviously more research is required.

I think the sale of new mechanical mods will not be available too much longer if the FDA has any say on the matter, for obvious reasons. Manufacturers could put a BMS in a mech, but technically it would no longer be a mech. I suspect mech purists would find a way to disable the BMS believing that it would affect optimimum performance.

 

[DPLongo22]

So if the FDA decides to regulate the use of regulated mods, should only DNA mods be allowed?

It would be unusual for a government entity to go so deep as to allow such specifics, but life is surprising me daily lately. I do see the possibility of requiring some level of protection, but that's the hopeful side of me.

I've become Sgt. Shultz. Sad, these realizations.