So I could turn out to be full of it here.

[bombastinator]

Never heard that story and if there is any fact to it then the contestants just didn’t bring the right tools for the job. Nothing is crack proof regardless of the speed. However, that does not apply to my analogy above where processing speed is a goal therefore a faster processor is objectively “better”.

My point was that in special circumstances slower can be better. And yes, they didn’t. It was security though obscurity, sort of. BSD can run on verrry old machines, but, at least at the time was simultaneously a totally modern OS. Because the tools to crack a modern OS also assumed a minimum processor speed because who the hell can run anything on something that slow, they failed.
And I believe it did happen. The story is even older than vaping though. Iirc top end boxes were like 133mhz or something at the time.

If you want a different example, slower is also bigger with computers and occasionally those vastly larger pathways can have advantages. Like perhaps in space. Not sure about that though. It’s a weaker example.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

My point was that in special circumstances slower can be better. And yes, they didn’t. It was security though obscurity, sort of. BSD can run on verrry old machines, but, at least at the time was simultaneously a totally modern OS. Because the tools to crack a modern OS also assumed a minimum processor speed because who the hell can run anything on something that slow, they failed.
And I believe it did happen. The story is even older than vaping though. Iirc top end boxes were like 133mhz or something at the time.

If you want a different example, slower is also bigger with computers and occasionally those vastly larger pathways can have advantages. Like perhaps in space. Not sure about that though. It’s a weaker example.

Of course something slower can be better – lower power consumption, smaller foot print, lower radiant heat could all be attributes that out way a larger, hotter, faster computer. Despite the benefits in computing power a smartphone would not be very practical if it housed a i9 and a GTX 1080 GPU powered by a 2lb battery, encased in something the size of a large laptop. Here the goal is not necessarily faster computing but portability.

The point of my post was not to debate slower vs faster computing, I stated “With computing a goal could be faster processing”. It was an analogy that demonstrates different can be better which could be objectively measured.

As for BSD, there is no such thing as something being too slow to prevent hacking. One can exploit a known vulnerability without an ounce of system resources used. And there are many applications that work on the security though obscurity concept – that does not make them hack proof.

 

[chanelvaps]

OK so now it is making me yawn folks...

 

[Skwij]

Not too off topic though. Back to vaping. I discovered that sweet commercial juice attracts bees. Bumble bee, hornet, yellow jacket, they just can't get enough. It drove me crazy when I lived outside the city because I couldn't vape outside without being swarmed. They even tried to get into the DT. I'm not allergic or anything, but I still have zero desire to be stung fighting over some Uncle Meringue juice (highly recommended ,great stuff, haven't yet been able to reproduce a decent clone of it).

Stinky Canuck's Crantastic is bonafide skeeter/blackfly/bee repellent. Tastes purty danged good, too.

 

[TrollDragon]

This is a Radiator coil in a Velocity.

Here is one of Boden's threads, it was great until that Templar1191 idiot poked his face in...
Wire/coil gauge efficiency testing

 

[bombastinator]

Of course something slower can be better – lower power consumption, smaller foot print, lower radiant heat could all be attributes that out way a larger, hotter, faster computer. Despite the benefits in computing power a smartphone would not be very practical if it housed a i9 and a GTX 1080 GPU powered by a 2lb battery, encased in something the size of a large laptop. Here the goal is not necessarily faster computing but portability.

it seems we are on the same page

The point of my post was not to debate slower vs faster computing, I stated “With computing a goal could be faster processing”. It was an analogy that demonstrates different can be better which could be objectively measured.

as I said I agreed with the premise of your post. I mostly just liked the story. [/QUOTE]

As for BSD, there is no such thing as something being too slow to prevent hacking. One can exploit a known vulnerability without an ounce of system resources used.
[/QUOTE] yep. If they’ve got em anyway. To find one though you’ve got to see if that particular system has a given vulnerability and to do that you have to test it. Which takes clock cycles.

And there are many applications that work on the security though obscurity concept – that does not make them hack proof.

Also true. It takes time though. This was a walk in hackathon. Time was limited. Probably to a single day, though I didn’t ask. I could if you think it sufficiently important. I don’t want to bug the guy. He’s old and it’s late.

As luck would have it I ran into the originator of this story in the interim and got it told to me again.
It did happen, though later in the development of computing than I had remembered.

It was BSDi specifically. The fairly short lived commercial variant of BSD. It had unusually efficient code when it was out. To match equivalent throughput it didn’t need the speed other systems did, and it’s specialty was high security. As a result it was fine running on x386 systems where other OSes of the period simply couldn’t. There was commentary at the time that the windows version of the period might be able to match its code speed if it removed several of its more basic critical security features.

 

[diagrammatiks]

This thread got me to wrap a coil. Quad fused Clapton. At .09. This is dangerous to run on a mech. There’s nothing inherently dangerous about running .13-14 on a mech these days tho. A 30t will handle that no problem.

These coils are ss as well. I could get almost twice the surface area at the same ohms with kanthal. Kanthal version would easily be good for 400 watts.

 

[bombastinator]

View attachment 800457

This thread got me to wrap a coil. Quad fused Clapton. At .09. This is dangerous to run on a mech. There’s nothing inherently dangerous about running .13-14 on a mech these days tho. A 30t will handle that no problem.

as long as it actually stays at .13-.14 anyway. That’s the issue. If it for whatever reason drops a few hundredths of an ohm, poof you’re in trouble. That’s the reason for the popular statement “never go below .2 on a mech”. You can accidentally lose half an ohm and still be OK. Or are you saying that a real .09 would only be ok as long as you stay lucky because it could drop to .06?

These coils are ss as well. I could get almost twice the surface area at the same ohms with kanthal. Kanthal version would easily be good for 400 watts.

So what do you think of the vape at what looks from here like a full 200w? I could barely handle the 110 myself. I had overly niccy juice though.

 

[diagrammatiks]

as long as it actually stays at .13-.14 anyway. That’s the issue. If it for whatever reason drops a few hundredths of an ohm, poof you’re in trouble. That’s the reason for the popular statement “never go below .2 on a mech”. You can accidentally lose half an ohm and still be OK. Or are you saying that a real .09 would only be ok as long as you stay lucky because it could drop to .06?

So what do you think of the vape at what looks from here like a full 200w? I could barely handle the 110 myself. I had overly niccy juice though.

Like why would you lose ohms though. As long as the build is good there shouldn’t be a problem. Ss will also go up as it’s heated. I wouldn’t run a .09 on a single battery mech though.

Vape is fine. I wouldn’t do over 6mg on this build. Doesn’t seem fun. 3mg is fine.

 

[bombastinator]

Like why would you lose ohms though. As long as the build is good there shouldn’t be a problem.

because people are people but physics happens anyway. I thought my 0.10 build would stay at 0.10. It didn’t. Might make me an ignorant builder but that happens too. I also couldn’t make a chem lab experiment work to save my life in college but my dad did the stuff for a living. Safety margins are good.

Ss will also go up as it’s heated. I wouldn’t run a .09 on a single battery mech though.

Point. I forgot that about SS.

Vape is fine. I wouldn’t do over 6mg on this build. Doesn’t seem fun. 3mg is fine.

You getting that high wattage flavor improvement though? How much?

 

[greek mule]

These coils are ss as well. I could get almost twice the surface area at the same ohms with kanthal. Kanthal version would easily be good for 400 watts.

For the same Ohms if you transition from ss to kanthal you'll have less mass/surface area.
And you had to step down wattage.

 

[dripster]

It’s true I didn’t get into the double stapled alien left handed cross stitched stuff. I took what the store had. I’m liking the radiator coil I got in now better yet. I can take a full drag for one. I didn’t like putting it in though and I understand I won’t like it when it’s time to rewick it either.
My primary interest was showing how dangerous super sub ohm coils are without actually blowing myself up, and I did find that there is a flavor improvement though I didn’t find it “amazing” and “luscious” might be a bit strong. It’s there though.
Then the “it works better with 8 coils” started coming up and it was pointed out that if I used basically any other mod than the one I happened to have picked up because it was closest I would have been in the danger zone, so I dropped it. Also it became clear just from the level of jargon that I was starting to get well out of my math level to make things go. I want a vape that allows me to live life, not a life that allows me to live vape I guess.

I wasn't talking about the double stapled alien left handed cross stitched stuff nor about anything that even remotely resembles it. Those are for people who are building art that they're going to take incredible macro-zoomed focus-stacked photoshop-enhanced pictures of, and that you can find on instagram with your eyes closed. The vast majority of those don't even vape well. They are designed typically for art and aesthetics, usually not much more than that, albeit I'm not in any way trying to knock on people who love art and aesthetics, nor am claiming this particular side of the medal contains zero flavor performance upgrades, as claiming that would be untrue.

That said, my own personal first-hand experience has taught me that, between advanced FUNCTIONAL coil building and impressive variations of art, there exists a grey zone in the middle where non-subtle flavor performance upgrades can be found by careful exploration. (Careful, i.e. by taking other factors properly into account, like, airflow adjustment and draw strength vs coil positioning, the wicking, the choice of juices, etc. etc..)

On a regulated mod, try a pair of everyday normal handbuilt 3-core alien coils that are 28g Ni80 for the core wires, 38g (or 36g if you can't find a 38g, it doesn't make an enormous difference) Ni80 for the alien wrap wire, 6.5 wraps, 3mm ID. Dual coil. Around 100 watts looks to be the starting point with this particular build. If you have a mod that can support ArcticFox firmware and a PC that can run NFE Tools, then I recommend setting the Preheat Type to 'Curve' and selecting a Power Curve, and editing the Power Curve in NFE Tools by going into the Power Curve Editor window.

There, you can adjust the Time Scale to zoom in on the timeline, which is the horizontal axis of the graphical function that is shown there. Next, you can create your own custom power curve to boost the ramp up speed of your coil build a tad if that's what you like, using time offsets as seconds and power output levels as percentages that are relative to the wattage you set on the mod. The mod will conveniently automatically convert these percentages to wattages, on-the-fly so you don't have to re-adjust them each time when you change the wattage on the mod up or down. (Mods that can do this and that can sustain high wattage vaping pretty well are these days costing south of $40.)

On a single battery mech mod, I use a pair of handbuilt 3-core alien coils that are 27g Ni80 for the cores, 36g for the alien wrap wire, 4.5 wraps, 2.5mm ID. Dual coil = 0.11 ohms so needless to say I can't recommend this to anyone, as there are added risks involved and I can't guarantee other people's relative safety when there might be unknown factors at play that can seriously affect the safety. (Even, if these other people in question are already familiar with battery safety and specifically the part of battery safety that applies to using a mech mod.) To me, personally, this is another (very) noticeable flavor upgrade when compared to using a regulated mod, but that's me.

Finally, safety is all about many different shades of grey. Just because you can't do it with a level of safety that you yourself can find acceptable, doesn't mean everyone else can't, and, there is a reason why this type of coil building is called ADVANCED coil building so if you are still a newbie and/or you simply don't trust yourself about the safety, then clearly, this is not going to be for you. That is, at least not yet. There is a learning curve, but it most certainly isn't rocket surgery. IMO everyone should be free to decide for theirselves how they choose to vape. This doesn't apply to battery safety alone. If you want to be 100% safe, then stay away from vaping altogether.

 

[dripster]

? How do you figure that? Are you doing mech math? This is a VV mod. Running em at 110w. There are people that run these kind of things on mechs though, and claim it’s worth it for the “massive flavor”. The point of the excercise was to test this.
Are you saying it’s a bad test? That is possible.

The point of the excercise was to test this. By testing something else instead.

 

[Zakillah]

You referring to this? If so I was expecting something else. No discredit to the user who made this, takes a certain skillset to get all those wraps in line as such, but this is nothing more than 3x 30 awg in parallel. Given that 3x 30 awg is effectively the same as 2x 28 awg or even 1x 25 awg, I am willing to bet the performance of the 2 later gauges would be the same if the same number of wraps were used. Surface area, mass and resistance would all be within a very small variance. Don’t understand how this solves any issues associated with a typical coil.

Then maybe read the thread you have this picture taken from? He shows that thinner wire builds are more efficient then thick wire builds. That was the whole point of this thread. The total surface area stays pretty much the same if you use the same diameter and coil lengths, no matter what gauge you use. However the mass will be very different. Using 24G instead of triple 30G will double the mass of your coil; the 30G will produce more vapor when fired at the same power and will run cooler.
So, no, 3x30G does not give the same results as using 1x24G.

 

[dripster]

Yep; the board Geekvape uses for the Aegis Legend and Nova will do 12 Volts. Pretty much the only 2x18650 mods that can do that.


The batteries only care about Watts. Which combination of resistance/voltage you use is irrelevant.
All I´m saying is you dont need to build that low on a regulated device. Its usually smarter NOT to build that low. Simply because thinner wires have less mass, need less power for the same vapor/flavor, are more efficient and run cooler. And thinner wire results in higher resistance.
Using a (for example) 22G build on a regulated device isnt exactly the smartest thing to do.

Another thing thats a problem on super low builds is that even the tiniest fluctuations in resistance will change your power output a lot.
Take a 0,03 Ohm fluctuation:
0,07 to 0,1 is a ~40% difference.
0,30 to 0,33 is only a 10% difference.

Thinner wire doesn't necessarily always result in higher resistance, as you can work your way around that by laying multiple core wire strands in parallel before fusing them together with the wrap wire.

Further, none of my advanced coil builds around 0.1 ohm fluctuate by more than just a few percent because my builds are stable. If a 0.1 ohm build drops to 0.07 ohms, that's your proof that your build is rubbish.

 

[dripster]

That’s...scary. The reason I didn’t check my vape immediately when I started getting ohm fluctuations is because my information is that any portable ohm meter isn’t actually capable of accurately measuring a hundredth or an ohm. The accuracy is generally closer to 0.04ohm. If you want better than that you need a device that needs its own cart to be carried around. I aimed for 0.10 ohm and so far have gotten between .06 and 0.14 on the same coil. Aiming for 0.05 is very much in dead short territory. Heck I’M very much in dead short territory. I’m repeatedly pulling my batteries and checking for possible heat buildup. I don’t have batteries in it unless I’m watching the thing and it doesn’t go in my pocket. I personally don’t consider anything below 0.2 to be safe enough not to worry about constantly.

I'm using a Sifu B-Tab by UD to measure the resistance. Comparing several Sifu B-Tabs to a plethora of different DNA 250 mods, all of which were from reputable brands, revealed the Sifu B-Tab reports a 0.11 ohms atomizer/coil resistance as 0.12 ohms, reliably consistently so, all you have to do is just subtract 0.01 from the Sifu B-Tab's readout and then it will be accurate, tested and verified tested correct.

 

[smoked25years]

... I needed a pair of the biggest most ferocious low ohm exotic coils the could muster...

Is this it?

 

[dripster]

There is nothing bad about the fact that the Aegis can do 12 Volts. All it does is that it gives you a much wider range of possible resistance/power options.
The way to calculate Amp draw on a regulated device is totally independent from the resistance. Only dialed in Watts matter. Also, I´d say with two 20A batteries at 100W you´re good. No need to worry

Look at it this way...to calculate how fast something (in this case, our coil) heats up you ONLY need Watts. How you generate those Watts is irrelevant. 1,0 Ohm and 10 Volts give the same 100W as 0,1 Ohm and 3,2 Volts.
The other thing thats important is how much mass your coil has. Thick wire has more mass, thus needs more time and/or energy to heat up compared to thinner wire.
As our primary goal is to vaporize liquid and not to heat up big chunks of metal; the less mass your coil has, the more efficient it is. You´ll notice this as thick wire builds will produce warmer vapor and will heat up your atty alot more. All this heat is "lost" energy that a thinner wire build would have used to vaporize more liquid.

You really do not need to think about resistance. The ONLY thing you ever need resistance for is to calculate Amp draw and how many Watts you get when you throw a build on a Mech. On a regulated mod you can mostly just forget about it. Its alot easier to do builds when you dont need to aim for a target resistance, too. Its a good thing.

If we can assume that YOUR primary goal is to vaporize liquid and not to heat up big (define "big"?) chunks of metal. Then no, reducing the mass your coil has does not necessarily help to improve the efficiency, as reducing the coil mass all the way down to zero mass is going to give you zero efficiency.

 

[dripster]

That’s the beauty of a series deck and a PWM. You get the ohms high and voltage up and the flavor is just incredible. More mass on a coil and a fat lipo being able to push it.

I can’t duplicate the flavor on a mech with a .12 ohm build that I can from PWM mod.

Since you have both, is there a difference in size on the Titan deck vs the Plus deck? Hard to fit many wraps on a Plus deck and I don’t think I’ve went over 4mm ID for coil size.

You don't necessarily need a fat LiPo and a series deck to be able to justify going for a nice PWM, though. Below is pic of one of my single coil builds in the Goon 1.5, that's a 0.24 ohms build, and that I currently am vaping on one of my Surric X-Vault mods (dual 18650 battery PWM). I get decent battery life with a pair of Sony VTC5D (Vapcell black 25A 2800mAh) batteries in this setup, juice conspumption is still within reasonable limits also IMO, and, YES FLAVOR.

 

[Zakillah]

If we can assume that YOUR primary goal is to vaporize liquid and not to heat up big (define "big"?) chunks of metal. Then no, reducing the mass your coil has does not necessarily help to improve the efficiency, as reducing the coil mass all the way down to zero mass is going to give you zero efficiency.

Damn, I didnt think this through.
Trying to wrap some zero mass coils; brb with test results...