Nicotine is addictive. Anyone who thinks otherwise IS in denial. Its the number one reason people are addicted to cigs in the first place. Don't believe me? Try going from 12mg nicotine juice to 0. Let me know how that turns out.
Nicotine not addictive? Yeah right!
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And your link to the clinical trials and studies on nicotine alone? meaning not in cigarettes or chew with people that have never been smokers or used chew, or is that just your opinion? Somehow I don't believe anybody here is trying to say that cigarettes aren't addictive in some way, some folks are more predisposed to becoming more\less addicted then others.
Then how do people go from 24mg to 6 or 3? Making one feel better and being addictive are 2 different things.
no one is denying nicotine when used first in tobacco form is not addictive.
when some one that has not used tobacco nor nicotine ever is given nicotine
alone in clinical trials to test for its use as a treatment show no dependency
after the trials are completed.
there is where the confusion comes from.
personally i don't care how addictive it may or may not be because when
vaped it causes no harm. therefore cannot be termed an addiction for
the purposes of regulation.
regards
mike
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Why is this even an argument? I don't get it? 21 pages of covering if nicotine is addictive or not lol.
Why do I vape? To get off cigs
Does it work? Yes
Am I winning? Sure am
Is nicotine addictive? Who cares, but it makes me feel better and as long as I get it, I stay away from tobacco.
Why do I vape? To get off cigs
Does it work? Yes
Am I winning? Sure am
Is nicotine addictive? Who cares, but it makes me feel better and as long as I get it, I stay away from tobacco.
The reason I believe is because some want to convince others that vaping nicotine isn't addictive, which of course it is, but they rather it wasn't to further their agenda and pretend vaping is healthy. It may be healthier then smoking but I wouldn't say its healthy because vaping nicotine is addictive.
IMO, way better test is if nicotine is not addictive, try smoking up to a pack a day, and going cold turkey. Let me know how that turns out.
Oh wait, I've done that. Three times.
The reward for stopping has to be greater than the perceived reward for continuing, to make sense. With smoking, back in the day before everyone had a device in their pocket to connect to the world wide web, it was easy to present all the cons for smoking and think that they far outweigh all the pros that I'm probably just making up since I'm at a PAD. Not anymore.
The pros for stopping vaping, or going to zero nic, vs. continuing to vape nic is IMO highly contentious and hard to argue that it is inherently better to do without.
With my experience of going cold turkey from smoking, I feel it would be 20 times easier to stop vaping (and not smoke either) than stopping smoking which for me wasn't impossible. And about 5 times easier than going from my current 18 mg to 0 mg, but I would currently be asking myself umpteen times a day why am I vaping 0 nic, and still vaping, when I would have much easier time just stopping altogether.
The whole notion of "you're addicted unless you could stop this right now" doesn't jive well in my understanding, opinion and experience with addictions. What jives more to me is can I cut back to a point that I self identify as moderate use? If not, then chances are I am addicted to this, whatever this is.
And in the case of vaping nicotine, I'm very much up for the debate of "what's inherently wrong with vaping nicotine?" And other than, well it costs money and that money could be used to feed the poor or save cats from trees, I haven't come up with a solid reason for why this is a problem.
To anyone.
the reason i feel this debate is important is because of the coming
regulations.
if in fact it is true that if you have never used tobacco and then start
using nicotine in non tobacco form and it shows no addictive qualities
not even dependency than the whole ANTZ argument about enslaving
a whole new generation of chillin' goes right down the drain.
on the other hand even if it was the most addictive substance in the known
universe. so what? if it doesn't cause harm or anymore harm than drinking coffee
there goes the ANTZ argument about second hand vapor right down the drain.
if second hand coffee can't hurt you,neither can second hand nicotine.
it would not meet the threshold of harm needed to justify regulation. just
like arsenic which is allowed in the food we eat at certain levels because it
is harmless at or below the accepted level.
the ANTZ war cry of deadly smoking and harmful second hand smoke is now
extremely addictive nicotine and ENDS.(electronic nicotine delivery systems)
this is not just rhetoric but,a deliberate tactical ploy to associate vaping with
cigarettes and all the mental imagery and emotional baggage that goes with it.
regards
mike
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the reason i feel this debate is important is because of the coming
regulations.
if in fact it is true that if you have never used tobacco and then start
using nicotine in non tobacco form and it shows no addictive qualities
not even dependency than the whole ANTZ argument about enslaving
a whole new generation of chillin' goes right down the drain.
on the other hand even if it was the most addictive substance in the known
universe. so what? if it doesn't cause harm or anymore harm than drinking coffee
there goes the ANTZ argument about second hand vapor right down the drain.
if second hand coffee can't hurt you,neither can second hand nicotine.
it would not meet the threshold of harm needed to justify regulation. just
like arsenic which is allowed in the food we eat at certain levels because it
is harmless at or below the accepted level.
the ANTZ war cry of deadly smoking and harmful second hand smoke is now
extremely addictive nicotine and ENDS.(electronic nicotine delivery systems)
this is not just rhetoric but,a deliberate tactical ploy to associate vaping with
cigarettes with all the mental imagery and emotional baggage that goes with it.
regards
mike
Game
Set
Match
I'm sure there is harmful affects of nicotine and anything artificial that you put in your body. But, IF someone really wants to get off nicotine,
the beauty with vaping is that nicotine levels can be cut down gradually. I started off with the 24 mg. and now down to a steady 12 mg.
with some 6 mg. that I mix in with some flavors to get used to a lower nicotine level.
Next purchase will be all 6 mg.! Yay! I have one 18 mg. bottle, but seldom use full strength -- just 'knowing' I can use a higher level of
nicotine IF I want it offers some psychological comfort.
I may continue to vape even after I am down to 0 mg., but will be happy to get closer to a healthier life.
the beauty with vaping is that nicotine levels can be cut down gradually. I started off with the 24 mg. and now down to a steady 12 mg.
with some 6 mg. that I mix in with some flavors to get used to a lower nicotine level.
Next purchase will be all 6 mg.! Yay! I have one 18 mg. bottle, but seldom use full strength -- just 'knowing' I can use a higher level of
nicotine IF I want it offers some psychological comfort.
I may continue to vape even after I am down to 0 mg., but will be happy to get closer to a healthier life.
And there is the rub. What does whether it is addictive or not have do in anyway shape or form with health?. Nicotine alone is not dangerous at all in a proper dosage, used by an otherwise healthy individual. The "tar and nicotine" warning is so ingrained that many seam to make no distinction between what they are anymore.
Seems I remember being told by my doctor many years ago that "the window for nic withdraw was 72 hours".
That said, after that, there is something else that comes into play. Might be simple repetition (habit) or "may be" other chemicals in the cigarettes. I know when I quit I had all the nic I wanted but still had many many withdrawal symptoms.
Affixing my tin foil hat
I believe that "they" know dammed well what "it" is and always have. I also believe that "they" came up with a way to enhance the nicotine and the other chemicals to make the effect far stronger and faster. Government is either too stupid to figure it out or purposefully turned a blind eye.
Not one damned thing. But the idiot puritans have convinced just about everyone that "addiction" is a dirty word, to be avoided AT ALL COSTS! like it's some damn religion. Bah humbug.
Andria
well yes, dear, you do know that the anti-smoking activits masquerading as "experts" are not "scientists". Their blathering and ideology has nothing to do with "science". It is a belief. And they are preachers of the Church of Perfect Health - as Father Jack has said so well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omMrWw9dGUM
(If you do not know Father Jack, or are not religious - I am not religious either - do listen for a while. To find out what he is actually doing in this video
)And a nice poster : http://i.imgur.com/bzdJTBT.jpg
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well yes, dear, you do know that the anti-smoking activits masquerading as "experts" are not "scientists". Their blathering and ideology has nothing to do with "science". It is a belief. And they are preachers of the Church of Perfect Health - as Father Jack has said so well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omMrWw9dGUM
(If you do not know Father Jack, or are not religious - I am not religious either - do listen for a while. To find out what he is actually doing in this video
And a nice poster : http://i.imgur.com/bzdJTBT.jpg
Good video! But I gotta say, I got a real giggle when he said he belongs to a church that has no problem with science... while wearing the Roman collar of the church that came very close to burning Galileo at the stake!
And this is the same church that says the earth is 6,000 yrs old, right? I also find it insanely amusing that glANTZ is called the Reverend of the Church of Perfect Health... and he's what, at least 50 lbs overweight? Which would surely be considered his business and no one else's... if he wasn't going around trying to ram his Church of Perfect Health down everyone's throat!
Andria
(I pixelated the offending word because I know the forum's rules!)
@AndriaD:
absolutely!
And it may be a good idea to watch several of Father Jack's videos. Ok, the guy is a Catholic priest. I am not religious either. On the contrary. But that guy is good He is a vaper, by the way
And - to my mind - it never hurts to have allies in different places. Also see here please CAADE Board Resolution on Electronic Cigarettes | CAADE
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That's not the Catholics. Those "creationists" are a ... hm... special kind of people. They have a belief. Like the Church of Perfect Health of the Rev. glANTZ. Which they try to ram down everybody's throats. And forget science! - Yes, there are certain parallels
absolutely! And it may be a good idea to watch several of Father Jack's videos. Ok, the guy is a Catholic priest. I am not religious either. On the contrary. But that guy is good
He is a vaper, by the way And - to my mind - it never hurts to have allies in different places. Also see here please CAADE Board Resolution on Electronic Cigarettes | CAADE
/edit:
That's not the Catholics. Those "creationists" are a ... hm... special kind of people. They have a belief. Like the Church of Perfect Health of the Rev. glANTZ. Which they try to ram down everybody's throats. And forget science! - Yes, there are certain parallels
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@AndriaD:
And it may be a good idea to watch several of Father Jack's videos. Ok, the guy is a Catholic priest. I am not religious either. On the contrary. But that guy is good
And - to my mind - it never hurts to have allies in different places. Also see here please CAADE Board Resolution on Electronic Cigarettes | CAADE
I'm not religious at all, but highly spiritually-inquiring. If he's a GOOD catholic priest, then I respect that, as I respect anyone who truly and conscientiously attempts to live by what they believe, their own conception of "highest good". Which is one thing that I find very offensive about the ANTZ -- they're preaching this church of perfect health, but I bet they drink alcohol, coffee, sodas, eat sugar, eat fatty foods that aren't good for them... They're hypocrites and that bugs the living you-know-what out of me!
Or in the famous words of that famous guy... Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Glass houses and all that.
And I agree, it's good to have allies wherever one can find them.
Andria
It definitely is the rub. An addiction to water would likely be treated as no big deal to anyone (after all it is necessary for survival). But if I were drinking water a gallon at a time in short periods of time (like 30 minutes or less), some people would be very concerned, citing my addiction is dangerous to my health. If there were hundreds of us who had competitions to see who could drink a gallon of water the fastest, that would likely raise a red flag. But chances are very good that no one would seek to ban water because of our addiction/misuse of the substance.
Whereas with nicotine, it is seemingly treated as "dangerous at any level." Heck, I'm a self identified smoker who smokes a pack every 3 weeks. I'm fairly certain ex-smokers think I'm engaged in harmful activity by smoking at all, and 100% certain that ANTZ would argue as much. But, as one having the experience, I would attest to notion that at this level of smoking, it is not harmful. Not harmless, either, but closer to that than 'danger Will Robinson, danger!'
The addiction thing is very arbitrarily applied unless it is full blown. Like if I never ate a meal and tried to convince everyone around me that my vaping 500 puffs a day is sufficient for my diet, well I'm pretty sure that won't fly too long for those close to me. But as reality is I vape often during the day, but around 3 ml a day, sometimes less, then it strikes me as normal, or even on low end of things. Probably would come off that way to most (experienced) vapers. But to ANTZ, it is 'danger Will Robinson, danger!' And arbitrarily applied cause most people I know, or have ever met, routinely seem addicted to something, and will express themselves as such. But as most things don't have the stigma that nicotine has against it, it really is far more often than not treated as no big deal. You worked 60 hours last week and are seemingly okay with that? Praise be unto you, you workaholic.
Affixing my tin foil hat
From my research of what you are conveying, I think it is because government/ANTZ intervention that had 'them' to go in direction of enhancing the addiction to nicotine in favor of lowering the tar. And right about now, we are seeing a bunch of monkeying around with eLiquid because what was just 2 years ago deemed 98% safer than smoking is now being treated as (say it with me), 'danger Will Robinson, danger!'
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