Nicotine not addictive? Yeah right!

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Altaire Versailles

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I have no illusions that vaping is 100% safe. However, I think there is no scientific evidence that nicotine is addictive. As I've said before, if anyone could point me to that data I would appreciate it :)

Smh so you seriously deny that nicotine is addictive? On a site full of people who needed vaping to stop smoking and cant quit vaping? I mean what do you propose is it about nicotine containing products that keeps us buying more and more of them then?
 

Ryedan

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Smh so you seriously deny that nicotine is addictive? On a site full of people who needed vaping to stop smoking and cant quit vaping? I mean what do you propose is it about nicotine containing products that keeps us buying more and more of them then?

Vaping nicotine is not addictive to me. I know because I did the test on myself. No nic for six months then vaped 12 mg for a month then back to zero nic. I was not addicted. These days I vape a tank of 2 mg nic every couple of weeks. I like the effect and TH.

I had been however strongly addicted to cigarettes for 37 years. Do you think there is only nicotine in cigarettes that people can become addicted to?

All the addiction data I have seen about nicotine addiction was done using cigarettes. The data is correct, they are addictive ;)


ETA: Very addictive.
ETA2: To most people.
 
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englishmick

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To get back on topic, as far as to whether nicotine is physically addictive or not, the fact is no one knows. There has never been a single clinical study on whether nicotine is physically addictive to humans. Not one. The best we can say at this point is, "maybe, maybe not".

That's interesting. I wonder how you could test it out. Try it on people and see if they become addicted? Could be bad news for the people who got the nicotine and not the placebo. Maybe that's why there haven't been any studies.

If you had asked me a couple of months ago I would have said of course it's addictive, and probably thought you were a little odd for asking. Reading here made me understand that I was addicted to smoking cigarettes, not necessarily to one particular chemical. Pinning it on nicotine is an assumption a lot of people have made, I'm sure.
 

Ryedan

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There has never been a single clinical study on whether nicotine is physically addictive to humans.

Actually I think there have been a couple of clinical studies that looked at pharmaceutical nicotine use for helping people with issues like ADD or Alzheimers. Don't remember if it was pills or liquid. If I find the link I'll post it. The problem is I have never seen the data, the article(s) just talked about that research. The data was said to show no addiction after the trials were over.
 

englishmick

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Vaping nicotine is not addictive to me. I know because I did the test on myself. No nic for six months then vaped 12 mg for a month then back to zero nic. I was not addicted. These days I vape a tank of 2 mg nic every couple of weeks. I like the effect and TH.

I couldn't do that. I would be scared to try it in case it didn't work out and I blew the fragile progress I've made. Just thinking about it makes me uncomfortable. The memory of struggling with cigarettes is burned into my brain. I guess that's fear rather than addiction. There's a lot of stuff going on under the general heading of addiction.

Right now I'm moving from 18ml to 12ml and even that makes me nervous.
 

Whitewolf2014

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Actually I think there have been a couple of clinical studies that looked at pharmaceutical nicotine use for helping people with issues like ADD or Alzheimers. Don't remember if it was pills or liquid. If I find the link I'll post it. The problem is I have never seen the data, the article(s) just talked about that research. The data was said to show no addiction after the trials were over.

Do you mean article's like these from Rolygate

The Great Nicotine Myth
Nicotine Clinical Trials: Why Aren't There Any?
Or this one with plenty of links.
Vaping Quotes
 

Ryedan

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I couldn't do that. I would be scared to try it in case it didn't work out and I blew the fragile progress I've made. Just thinking about it makes me uncomfortable. The memory of struggling with cigarettes is burned into my brain. I guess that's fear rather than addiction. There's a lot of stuff going on under the general heading of addiction.

Right now I'm moving from 18ml to 12ml and even that makes me nervous.

I hear ya englishmick and I know what you mean. I had been vaping for almost a year and a half and I felt quite free from the cig addiction. I wanted to do the experiment and went for it. I thought the worst it could be for me was if I had to repeat the 12 mg to zero process again, but I really didn't think I would have to and it turned out well for me.

This is not to say that everyone is the same, by any means. Addiction is complicated and it's not just chemical addiction. But considering the addiction I had to cigarettes, it proved to me that something else besides nicotine, or in addition to nicotine, or with the delivery method, or a combination of them all was responsible for that.

Best of luck with your nic reduction if this is what you want to do :thumb:. I did it slowly giving myself time to adjust between reductions, 2 or 3 mg at a time. Don't stress over it either, you can always go back up a notch if you feel the need :)
 
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Coldrake

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Actually I think there have been a couple of clinical studies that looked at pharmaceutical nicotine use for helping people with issues like ADD or Alzheimers.
That's true. But the studies were, as you say, for other things, not specifically for nicotine addiction, therefore it's not conclusive for nicotine addiction, even though in that study it showed no addictive properties in people. I also have the link somewhere, (I really need to get my links organized). I read somewhere that it would be unethical to do human studies just to see if nicotine (or any possibly addictive substance) was addictive, which make perfect sense.
 

Ryedan

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Do you mean article's like these from Rolygate

The Great Nicotine Myth
Nicotine Clinical Trials: Why Aren't There Any?
Or this one with plenty of links.
Vaping Quotes

Excellent Whitewolf, thank you! From the first link:

"And then we find that there have, in fact, been multiple clinical trials of pure nicotine administered to never-smokers, for the investigation of other effects such the benefit in cases of cognitive impairment. No subject, ever, in any of these trials, showed any sign of dependence."

"There is no evidence that nicotine alone can create dependence. Without consumption in tobacco it has no evidence whatsoever for reinforcement (dependence creation)."

The second link is also a very interesting read :)

I also just did a bit of Googling and found this:

Growing List of Positive Effects of Nicotine Seen in Neurodegenerative Disorders. A small quote from the article:

" “Nicotinic receptors in the brain appear to work by regulating other receptor systems, like a gain amplifier,” he said. “If you're sleepy, it tends to make you more alert. If you're anxious, it tends to calm you. Obviously the results of small studies often aren't replicated in larger studies, but at least nicotine certainly looks safe. And we've seen absolutely no withdrawal symptoms. There doesn't seem to be any abuse liability whatsoever in taking nicotine by patch in non-smokers. That's reassuring.” "

I think they were using the patch. The article is about the work of:

Paul A. Newhouse, M.D.
Professor of Psychiatry, Pharmacology, and Medicine
Director, Center for Cognitive Medicine
Department of Psychiatry
Vanderbilt University School of Medicine

A blurb about him from the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine website. Seems legit to me :)

So, I haven't seen the data yet and I hate to jump the gun, but it seems likely some legitimate research has been done on this.
 
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Ryedan

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That's true. But the studies were, as you say, for other things, not specifically for nicotine addiction, therefore it's not conclusive for nicotine addiction, even though in that study it showed no addictive properties in people.

Yes and there is also no published data that I've seen which is why I don't harp about this all the time ;)

Hopefully this changes some day soon.
 

cfm78910

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Wow, when I posted this thread originally I never expected to get so many views and replies. It was really interesting reading all the different experiences and points of view. It made me realize there is no one size fits all when it comes to this subject, everyone's experience is different.

For me personally, I find nicotine extremely addictive. I managed to stop smoking cigarettes a few times through lots of willpower and with the help of Nicorette. The Nicorette kept the cravings away but if I stopped chewing I had really bad withdrawal. I managed to go for months on end with only Nicorette so it is fair to say I pretty much shook the hand-to-mouth habit as well as inhaling and exhaling smoke. Some of the reasons I enjoy vaping so much is that it made me realize how enjoyable inhaling and exhaling smoke (vapour) is and the hand to mouth habit is a nice one to have back as well. However, for me it is definitely all about the nic. I started on 18mg and stayed there for 3 months. Then I dropped to 12mg and thought I was going to go insane. I then mixed 12mg and 18mg to make 15mg and after a few days I settled and became more comfortable. I've tried 12mg juice since then but that is a step too far for me at this stage. I'm not worried about the nic, I enjoy it and have no intention ever quitting it completely. For me it is about finding the right strength to keep the cravings away and to give me a bit of a throat hit. The fact that I can now again inhale it in a safe(r) way is a real bonus.

Thanks for all the replies thus far, ECF is indeed an amazing place!

Cheers.

Chris
 

Whitewolf2014

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As seen within the 2nd link from my above post, and here again if you missed it or even if you refuse to click on the link. :laugh:

Nicotine Clinical Trials: Why Aren't There Any? contains this
It's the $64,000 question, and the one everyone argues about.

There is a very noticeable gap here: despite huge interest in nicotine's potential for dependence-creation, there is nothing available on that topic. This is such a critical omission that, reasonably, it cannot be accidental. There is no published study with an online link, and it is reported that there is nothing available in offline libraries. There is plenty of material on dependence in smokers or ex-smokers, but of course that is irrelevant to nicotine's potential for dependence: other ordinary ingredients in the diet could almost certainly be made 'addictive' by delivery in repeated large doses over many years in a carefully-engineered cocktail of synergens. For example it seems likely that dependence on vitamin A or a precursor could be created by this method, since there are several anecdotal reports of reinforcement occurring with abuse of unboosted, unmodified, raw products (e.g. carrot juice); but no one regards vitamin A in the diet, or supplements, as 'addictive'.

The use of the term addiction to describe a harmless dependence is commonly employed now to artificially inflame the debate by adding an unscientific, emotional component.

A crucial and suspicious omission

Because it is such a crucial omission, it is worth considering whether in fact it is possible that such a study has never been carried out anywhere in the world, ever. Since the anecdotal reports on nicotine's lack of dependence potential provide hints as to the outcome (all the evidence clearly shows that nicotine has no potential for reinforcement, outside of smoking), then perhaps this provides one answer as to why such a study has not been published.

Many would welcome a clinical trial that addresses the results of administration of pure nicotine to never-smokers [3], as this would answer some important questions. However, it is clear that such a study is unlikely to see the light of day, for numerous reasons.

Could such a study be carried out today?

Of course it could: we have just seen that multiple such trials have been approved and completed.

There are some difficulties to be faced, though:
• Firstly, the taboo surrounding nicotine. However this hurdle, as we have seen, has been cleared many times.
• The serious problem of 'rocking the boat'. This is a major obstacle - no senior medical figure wishes to make colleagues look stupid. And make no mistake: many senior figures will look very stupid indeed if such a trial, purely for measuring dependence, is authorised.
• Funding: since clinical trial funds usually come from the pharmaceutical industry, but pharma is one of the main groups propping up the myth of nicotine's dependence potential, then funds are unlikely to be forthcoming. Pharma has a major investment in maintaining ownership of nicotine; but a harmless, non-dependence creating, normal dietary ingredient would belong to anyone.
• Ideology and the tobacco control industry: the TCI has morphed from anti-smoking through anti-tobacco to anti-nicotine, in order to maintain its power, control and funding. It has to oppose nicotine use in order to survive. The tobacco control industry is immensely powerful due to its vast funding, principally as a result of the billions of dollars coming through the MSA system. Ecigs delivering harm-free nicotine will destroy cigarette sales, so the MSA payments will start to slide (already starting to happen at Q2 2014), so TCI funding will gradually disappear; therefore the TCI has to oppose nicotine use or see their immense salaries - and the very jobs themselves - vapourise.

Suppression and concealment

We already know that factual information about nicotine is suppressed:
• In October 2013, Prof Mayer of Graz showed that nicotine's supposed high toxicity is a myth, and a new LD50 needs to be established up to twenty times higher
• The CDC have done everything possible to hide their large-scale clinical trial showing that, since all 800 subjects tested positive, everyone in the population probably consumes and tests positive for dietary nicotine
• NICE, the UK clinical authority, have recently had to make it clear that nicotine has no association with cancer, due to the appalling degree of ignorance among British doctors: 44% in a recent survey responded that they thought nicotine is associated with cancer. Nobody knows what brought on this sudden revelation of the truth, although pharmacotherapies might just possibly have something to do with it.
• The FDA have finally decided to publicise the fact that nicotine is not dependence-creating, liable to abuse, or dangerous if over-consumed (in order to promote pharmacotherapies that utilise it). No doubt they would like to restrict this to medical nicotine, though unfortunately the molecule looks pretty much the same whoever consumes it, with or without an MA.

In April 2013 the FDA announced they no longer considered nicotine to be dependence-creating, liable to abuse, or dangerous if over-consumed.

In their Consumer Updates, they proposed removing several of the warning labels from NRTs. They have now conceded that several decades of evidence from nicotine-containing meds sales demonstrates that nicotine has no measurable potential for addiction and presents no danger of harm through overdose.

Nicotine Replacement Therapy Labels May Change
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/UCM346012.pdf

A trial of nicotinic acid (vitamin B3) would probably get the go-ahead without issues - but nicotine is a problem, due to the taboo but mainly for its potential to destroy medical reputations, areas of dogma, whole pharmaceutical catalogues, regulatory authorities' authority, and more of the same. For all practical purposes they are similar, and in some ways more than similar; but we might expect a trial of vitamin B3 to be approved while its sister compound would be difficult. However there are many countries, and even some in Europe, where a trial of nicotine with never-smokers could almost certainly be carried out currently without issues and without contention. The real question is probably, "Is it really tenable that a clinical trial of nicotine has never taken place?".

A modern trial that did get published would be a very interesting phenomenon anyway, given the current situation regarding the commercially-influenced 'management' of clinical trials. Allowing for the dozens of ways to rig a trial, and that the results of an unmanaged trial of nicotine's dependence potential are likely to be extremely embarrassing all round, it would be hard to see how its conclusions could be trusted. A historic trial would be of far greater interest, and surely it is reasonable to suggest that such a trial exists; such trials were commonplace. Example: the large-scale clinical trials examining the presence of nicotine in the population (in which every subject tested positive every time in every study). The CDC carried out one such study, in which 800 people all tested positive for nicotine; and now they have done their best to remove that trial from public view and undoubtedly would have removed it entirely had it not already been cited.

References #22 under Nicotine
The infamous CDC nicotine trial that they tried so hard to conceal - but as it had already been extensively cited, that proved impossible. They also conveniently named it to try and create the impression that dietary nicotine is instead absorbed from ETS.

Preliminary data: Exposure of persons aged = / >4 years to tobacco smoke - United States.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1993
Journal of the American Medical Association. 1993;269:852

All 800 subjects in this clinical trial to determine the presence of nicotine in the population tested positive for nicotine metabolyte (cotinine), despite the majority being non-smokers and many having zero contact with smokers. The result so surprised the scientific community that another large-scale test was carried out, with 136 subjects, with the same result (everyone tests positive for nicotine).
Later, better knowledge of nutrition provided the explanation: nicotine is a normal ingredient in the diet, being present in many vegetables and contributing to a measurable plasma nicotine level in anyone with a good diet, although this was not widely known at the time (nutrition has always struggled for recognition as an important life science).
The CDC subsequently tried to hide this trial because it became clear to everyone that nicotine was a normal dietary ingredient, and this didn't agree with their agenda.
Many thanks to Dr Farsalinos for unearthing it.
 

WTracyS

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Of course nicotine is addictive. Addiction is a compulsion, something you can't go without. Of course, the level of addiction is different for different people.

Medically, just like with opiates (heroine, morphine, oxy) our bodies contain natural receptors for the substance. Our bodies actually make these chemicals, and use them to trigger other functions. We only need so much of the chemicals to make everything work right. If we provide an outside source of the chemical, like cigarettes or heroine, our bodies slow down their own production thereby becoming dependent on the outside source. That means, if you take away that outside source, your body will scream for the chemical until either you provide it, or the body can ramp up production to meet the need.

When it comes to smoking, it's been found that the process is almost as important as the chemical. In other words, if you always smoke after a meal, if you stop, your brain will tell you that something is missing. Muscle memory will have you reaching for your pack. Then you miss it, even if you hadn't thought about it for awhile. That means, people can just as easily get addicted to the nicotine gum or patch. They're no longer missing the process (or at least not as much), but that nicotine has them by the throat. That's why vaping is more successful way of quitting. You keep the process, and can wean off the nicotine while immediately getting rid of the 600 or so carcinogens found in tobacco.

Why is it easier for some people to quit, and some people just get addicted to the gum? Easy, how readily does their body adjust for the lack of an outside source of the chemical? How hard does the brain hold onto the need for the process?

Anyone who argues that nicotine isn't addictive needs to read some studies. It's never been a question of whether or not it's addictive. The argument was whether or not it is harmful
 

Alien Traveler

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As seen within the 2nd link from my above post, and here again if you missed it or even if you refuse to click on the link. :laugh:

Nicotine Clinical Trials: Why Aren't There Any? contains this
It's the $64,000 question, and the one everyone argues about.

There is a very noticeable gap here: despite huge interest in nicotine's potential for dependence-creation, there is nothing available on that topic. This is such a critical omission that, reasonably, it cannot be accidental. There is no published study with an online link, and it is reported that there is nothing available in offline libraries.
Somehow you are trying to forget about important objective of all medical trials: do not harm. Why are you doing it? To make you statement look good?
In reality any trial trying to test possibility of creating addiction (on healthy not addicted population) is highly unethical and therefore impossible. Pure and simple.

Maybe in near future there will be enough full-time vapers who used nicotine, vaped for several years but never smoked to check whether they are addicted or not. Then there will be a study. Not earlier.


In April 2013 the FDA announced they no longer considered nicotine to be dependence-creating, liable to abuse, or dangerous if over-consumed.

In their Consumer Updates, they proposed removing several of the warning labels from NRTs. They have now conceded that several decades of evidence from nicotine-containing meds sales demonstrates that nicotine has no measurable potential for addiction and presents no danger of harm through overdose.

Nicotine Replacement Therapy Labels May Change
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/UCM346012.pdf
Not true. Even reading link you have provided we can see that FDA stated:

the fact that although any nicotine-containing product is potentially addictive, decades of research and use have shown that NRT products sold OTC do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence.

In other words nicotine still potentially addictive but nicotine gums and patches are not. It is easy to see why: they do not give a pleasant experience (no incentive to overdose) and they are used by people determined to get rid of smoking and nicotine.

I do not like your post. Do not like it at all. It has scientific appearance (easier to convince people?) but has anti-scientific meaning, masked conspiracy theory.
 

skoony

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Somehow you are trying to forget about important objective of all medical trials: do not harm. Why are you doing it? To make you statement look good?
In reality any trial trying to test possibility of creating addiction (on healthy not addicted population) is highly unethical and therefore impossible. Pure and simple.

Maybe in near future there will be enough full-time vapers who used nicotine, vaped for several years but never smoked to check whether they are addicted or not. Then there will be a study. Not earlier.



Not true. Even reading link you have provided we can see that FDA stated:

the fact that although any nicotine-containing product is potentially addictive, decades of research and use have shown that NRT products sold OTC do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence.

In other words nicotine still potentially addictive but nicotine gums and patches are not. It is easy to see why: they do not give a pleasant experience (no incentive to overdose) and they are used by people determined to get rid of smoking and nicotine.

I do not like your post. Do not like it at all. It has scientific appearance (easier to convince people?) but has anti-scientific meaning, masked conspiracy theory.

it still does not change the fact that nicotine sans the tobacco
may not be addictive.
i wouldn't know personally, i smoked for 38 years.
regards
mike
 

Alien Traveler

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Anyone who argues that nicotine isn't addictive needs to read some studies. It's never been a question of whether or not it's addictive. The argument was whether or not it is harmful
I agree with the small exception: we should talk not only about whether nicotine is harmful, but whether the way we obtain nicotine is harmful. Cigarettes are harmful. What about vaping? We do not know yet. (Somehow I do not believe putting 20 ml of PG/VG/flavorings in lungs daily is harmless) It looks like nicotine addiction is multiplied by delivery system (low for patches, high for cigarettes, unknown for vaping) and most of the possible harm comes from delivery system (low for patches, high for cigarettes, unknown for vaping).
 

WTracyS

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it still does not change the fact that nicotine sans the tobacco
may not be addictive.
mike


Nicotine "may" not be addictive. There "may" be life on Venus. I may road rage someone some day and wind up in prison, You may decide to become a marathon runner tomorrow. That cheap atty clone you're looking at may be better than the original.

A lot of things may be or may happen. But we don't live our lives, or make important decisions based on may. We get the facts first.

Here are some facts. Maybe not in layman terms, but actual, facts backed up by controlled, peer reviewed studies. I can't send a link to the actual studies because they're behind a pay wall.

Metabolism
 

bluecat

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I'll add this to the mix, since I have been trying to find out since this post was made and have been unable to see any science on it. Tobacco was hand picked for many years. I have been unable to find any reports suggesting these pickers ever became addicted to nicotine. There are many reports on poisoning but nothing on addiction. Would it not stand to reason that there would be many report of the pickers becoming addicted?

If any has such a link(s), it would be appreciative.
 

WTracyS

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I agree with the small exception: we should talk not only about whether nicotine is harmful, but whether the way we obtain nicotine is harmful. Cigarettes are harmful. What about vaping? We do not know yet. (Somehow I do not believe putting 20 ml of PG/VG/flavorings in lungs daily is harmless) It looks like nicotine addiction is multiplied by delivery system (low for patches, high for cigarettes, unknown for vaping) and most of the possible harm comes from delivery system (low for patches, high for cigarettes, unknown for vaping).

Good point. I agree. More studies need to be done on vaping. There are some out there, mostly on the effect to the lungs. It's looking promising, but we have a long way to go before a consensus can be reached.
 
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