Now what was that famous guy's name again? Hmmmmm, well, anyway, too bad more people don't actually listen and follow his teachings, let alone say his name.
Nicotine not addictive? Yeah right!
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Now what was that famous guy's name again? Hmmmmm, well, anyway, too bad more people don't actually listen and follow his teachings, let alone say his name.
it has struck me as odd how certain factions of the vaping "community" have
gone .... over tea kettle when it comes to perceived danger or harm.
the concern over diketones comes to mind. yes it causes popcorn lung.
it causes popcorn lung in a small percent of the workers who manufacture
microwave popcorn,not in people microwaving popcorn at home.the concern
is not that it can harm you,its at what level it can harm you. studies being done right now
should determine that. right now there have been no reported cases of popcorn
lung in vapers. even in this short amount of time one would think some one
with a particular sensitivity to diketones would have experienced problems.
the fact that the ANTZ are not jumping all over themselves shouting popcorn
lungs tells me they don't think its even remotely possible. yet,the response from
some vapers is,POISON,their selling us poison,they wont tell us whats in their
juice it must be poison,dont buy that stuff its poison,etc.. .
amerivapes come to mind as the classic example. basically a company trying
to defend their product from the self appointed vaping police that where using
tried and true moveon.org tactics.
it boggles my mind. i think i'll go and get my cream pie cinnamon super juice
and microwave up some popcorn.
regards
mike
gone .... over tea kettle when it comes to perceived danger or harm.
the concern over diketones comes to mind. yes it causes popcorn lung.
it causes popcorn lung in a small percent of the workers who manufacture
microwave popcorn,not in people microwaving popcorn at home.the concern
is not that it can harm you,its at what level it can harm you. studies being done right now
should determine that. right now there have been no reported cases of popcorn
lung in vapers. even in this short amount of time one would think some one
with a particular sensitivity to diketones would have experienced problems.
the fact that the ANTZ are not jumping all over themselves shouting popcorn
lungs tells me they don't think its even remotely possible. yet,the response from
some vapers is,POISON,their selling us poison,they wont tell us whats in their
juice it must be poison,dont buy that stuff its poison,etc.. .
amerivapes come to mind as the classic example. basically a company trying
to defend their product from the self appointed vaping police that where using
tried and true moveon.org tactics.
it boggles my mind. i think i'll go and get my cream pie cinnamon super juice
and microwave up some popcorn.
regards
mike
Actually, I believe I *have* experienced problems from this very source. But, the major problem is that the eliquid vendors won't tell you what's in the eliquid, so I have no real way of knowing for sure WHAT caused the problem I experienced with one particular eliquid.
I have asthma, so I know what 'short of breath' feels like, quite intimately. My reading about diketones suggests that often, this type of damage can be mistaken/misdiagnosed for asthma and/or COPD; this one particular ejuice, a "pancake" flavor which presumably contained some type of "butter flavor," made my asthma go OFF THE CHARTS -- and since I've stopped vaping it, my asthma has improved, but has not gone back to "fully in control," which worries me -- what if I've permanently damaged my lungs just from vaping that juice for a few weeks?
Needless to say, I'm now trying as hard as I can to a) DIY all my own ejuice, and b) choose ONLY those flavors which do not contain ANY diketones. Paranoid? Maybe. But I don't want to be any MORE short of breath than I already am, and diketones have a serious potential to cause that.
If the thing you're trying to avoid causes irritation, then worrying about it may be considered paranoia. When the thing you're trying to avoid can cause TOTAL LUNG DESTRUCTION, then I don't think paranoia is unwarranted at all.
Andria
hi Andria,
having a pre-existing condition such as yours i can see where the potential for
harm must be carefully considered in any thing you put into your lungs.
generally when i speak of relative harm concerning these types of things
its from a otherwise healthy person point of view. there are literally hundreds
of common every day things that could,can and,do cause severe reactions
in some people. accounting for every exception can be quite difficult.
in your case it could have been diketones that aggregated your condition
as it would with anything that can be an irritant to the lungs.
from what you describe it sounds more like a severe allergic reaction
possibly to the diketones.
i hope you get better and someday they find suitable replacements
in flavoring for those that need it.
regards
mike
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Meh.
I went from 18mg to 12mg to 6mg in three months when I quit cigs. then three more months 0mg, which I've been on for 12 months now. If anything I'm now addicted to the flavors haha.
Anyway, for me at least, it seems it wasn't the nicotine either. More the ritual and the time outs...to just sit and think or just sit
I went from 18mg to 12mg to 6mg in three months when I quit cigs. then three more months 0mg, which I've been on for 12 months now. If anything I'm now addicted to the flavors haha.
Anyway, for me at least, it seems it wasn't the nicotine either. More the ritual and the time outs...to just sit and think or just sit
I wish I hadn't found this thread so late in the game.
I'm not going to try and read it because I know a lot of posts are going to annoy the hell out of me.
Anyway, here is my contribution regarding the question of whether or not nicotine by itself is addictive...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...le-health-benefits-nicotine.html#post14462288
I'm not going to try and read it because I know a lot of posts are going to annoy the hell out of me.
Anyway, here is my contribution regarding the question of whether or not nicotine by itself is addictive...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...le-health-benefits-nicotine.html#post14462288
I know I'm addicted. Every time I've went back to smoking it was because my vaping gear failed in one way or another. If I couldn't vape, I would probably be buying a pack of smokes within a few hours. I would like to think I'm stronger than that, but I'm a realist and I know what has happened in the past.
well yes, dear, you do know that the anti-smoking activits masquerading as "experts" are not "scientists". Their blathering and ideology has nothing to do with "science". It is a belief. And they are preachers of the Church of Perfect Health - as Father Jack has said so well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omMrWw9dGUM
(If you do not know Father Jack, or are not religious - I am not religious either - do listen for a while. To find out what he is actually doing in this video
And a nice poster : http://i.imgur.com/bzdJTBT.jpg
That was a fantastic video, Anja. I don't mind Reverand Glantz, but I prefer High Priestess Glantz
How do you know it's not the habit and rituals rather than the nicotine?
Not saying that it couldn't be the nicotine for you, just wondering how one can be so sure.
After all, most patch and gum users fail because they still crave something other than the nicotine.
There are other substances involved than just nicotine -- I'm just about certain that it's my dependance on the MAOI support that kept me addicted to cigarettes; if not for WTA, I know I would not be smoke-free.
That's the hard thing about all this... it's not JUST nicotine, and it's not JUST habit/ritual... there are other substances!!! People try vaping, they're not satisfied, so they go back to smoking -- when, if they had just tried WTA, they could very likely have succeeded with vaping!
Patch and gum fail because there's no ritual/habit, AND it's just nicotine, without the other alkaloids!
I echo Cloud Minder -- if I could get all the other alkaloids that are in WTA *without* the nicotine, I think I could pretty easily do without nicotine altogether -- I might initially have some of the mild symptoms -- headache, lack of focus -- but it would most likely be no more difficult to do without the nicotine than it is for me to do without caffeine -- not my preference, but entirely within the realm of possibility.
Andria
Yeah, I almost edited my post to add something about the other tobacco alkaloids.
But I didn't want to complicate the issue in this particular case.
And I also kind of figured you'd stop by and fix that oversight for me.
But I didn't want to complicate the issue in this particular case.
And I also kind of figured you'd stop by and fix that oversight for me.
Yeah, I almost edited my post to add something about the other tobacco alkaloids.
But I didn't want to complicate the issue in this particular case.
And I also kind of figured you'd stop by and fix that oversight for me.
Heh.
It seems really evident to me that when big ol pharma decided to start making smoking cessation products, they DELIBERATELY left out those other substances, just SO those NRT products would fail, so that people would keep buying, and buying, and buying... etc. And for those who actually did manage to quit using NRT, BP would get further revenue by those folks visiting their docs about their chronic depression, and get prescriptions for some of BP's other high-dollar snake oil. But for those who fail repeatedly using NRT, they get to keep making money when people KEEP buying NRT, and they also make money when those people feel so much self-hate that they have to have the antidepressants anyway, and of course when those people get sick with cancer or COPD, they get to keep making money on that. They're in business to make money, not actually help anyone -- if they help anyone, it's just a side effect, not their actual business plan.
But unfortunately that really complicates the entire thing for everyone who thinks, based on BP's model, that nicotine is the end-all and be-all, when it is definitely NOT.
Andria
I guess that I don't really know for sure. I think a big part of it is ritual, how big I'm not certain. For me nicotine replacement other than vaping didn't work long, but neither did performing the rituals without nicotine. Vaping works for me. I think it's a safer alternative. I'm not bothering anyone. The percentage of ritual vs of nicotine addiction is irrelevant to me. (Pretty Zen, huh?)
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I've heard that. I've also heard caffeine is completely non addictive. I've also heard that nicotine addiction is on par with a {Moderated} addiction. I prefer to believe the latter. The former just makes me look weak.
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Heh.
It seems really evident to me that when big ol pharma decided to start making smoking cessation products, they DELIBERATELY left out those other substances, just SO those NRT products would fail, so that people would keep buying, and buying, and buying... etc. And for those who actually did manage to quit using NRT, BP would get further revenue by those folks visiting their docs about their chronic depression, and get prescriptions for some of BP's other high-dollar snake oil. But for those who fail repeatedly using NRT, they get to keep making money when people KEEP buying NRT, and they also make money when those people feel so much self-hate that they have to have the antidepressants anyway, and of course when those people get sick with cancer or COPD, they get to keep making money on that. They're in business to make money, not actually help anyone -- if they help anyone, it's just a side effect, not their actual business plan.
But unfortunately that really complicates the entire thing for everyone who thinks, based on BP's model, that nicotine is the end-all and be-all, when it is definitely NOT.
Andria
and when the patient dies, BT is at fault. BT just forwards the cost on to the consumers, so they don't care. it's a win, win for both of them.
ETA; i had a heck of a time going through withdrawal even with the highest nic juice i could find and second generation gear. the stress and headaches were killer. but i stuck it through. didn't want the other alkaloids. to me, i think (without proof either way) the more i get from the original product (tobacco), the more likely the danger is going to increase. after all, that's what i'm trying to minimize. originally for my kids. but i feel so much better now, that it's for me as well.
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Basicly nicotine is a chemical dependency not an addiction. The line between dependency and addiction is whether you are functional or not. An addiction like drugs or alcohol ruins relationships, jobs, finances, legal standing, etc. From what Ive read that is how psychologists and therapists determine addiction from dependency.
I would say it's sometimes a fine line. Have you ever braved a storm because you ran out of smokes? Went through the house and car digging up change? Check the ash trays for a long ....?
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