Nicotine not addictive? Yeah right!

[AndriaD]

I'll ask again... betting I get little to no response...

Will all the vapers who've never used other tobacco products that fit in this category PLEASE give an Aye.



Never smokers... never tobacco users. We have a bunch of ex tobacco users claiming that nicotine by itself gets everyone addicted yet we have a well described study of 400 people who used nicotine and NONE got addicted.

I'm an addict. I vape 50mg juice at 70 to 80 watts. (Calculates to ~90 watts before v - drop and mod resistance.)

BUT!!!!!

I was a heavy smoker. I can't count myself as a never smoker so I can't add to discrediting the findings.

Sent from my device.

That seems to be the main problem... all these EX smokers counting themselves among NEVER smokers, and then ranting that nicotine certainly IS addictive!!!!!!!!!! (there have to be all those exclamation points for some reason).

But in brain chemistry, an EX smoker is NOT THE SAME as a NEVER smoker. Oh wait I forgot... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If keyboards didn't have that annoying trait of repeating when you hold down a key, I'm thinking the number of exclamation points would decrease substantially.


Andria

 

[Bman1959]

nicotine when taken with tobacco in any form can be addictive.
the problem arises as i see it is when people who have never had a tobacco product
take nicotine in clinical studies testing for the medicinal properties in the treatment
of various illnesses it is noted that no addictive qualities are observed.
some have commented that they know some got "addicted" to nicotine gum
when they used it having never used tobacco before.ok,gum chewing relieves stress
and it is noted gum chewing can become "addictive". although i believe until gum chewing
has gotten to the harm producing stage which happens in a very small percentage of
people(damaged teeth) it should be referred to at worst a dependency.
it appears nicotine in and of itself is not addictive when not used in conjunction
with tobacco.
i believe in order to use the term "addiction" in its modern sense it has to cause
harm. used with tobacco harmful. used in vaping,not harmful,therefore not
addicting according to the modern use of the word "addiction".

regards
mike

I was with you until this last sentence. Harm may be the "modern" definition, but for my world, "withdrawal" is.

 

[beckdg]

Oh wait I forgot... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't do that now.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am I legit?

Sent from my device.

 

[firerat]

Is this a question of whether or not nicotine is addicting AT ALL, or just how addicting is it?

 

[retired1]

Let's stop with the baiting and snark folks.

 

[WattWick]

I think everyone who really want to know more about this topic do themselves a great disservice by not reading Andrias posts in this very thread. Interesting stuff.

 

[skoony]

I was with you until this last sentence. Harm may be the "modern" definition, but for my world, "withdrawal" is.

you would be right if one could die from nicotine withdrawal.
it can be a a severe discomfort fro some but, to my knowledge
i know no one has has died nor even hospitalized for it.
the later i am sure has probably happened.
the reason caffeine isn't regulated is even with withdrawal symptoms
they don't meet the threshold of harm to warrant it.
i am sure if someone looks hard enough it could be found
that some one had died from caffeine or nicotine withdrawal
but,the rarity of such occurrence would not warrant regulation.

regards
mike

 

[chargingcharlie]

You keep narrowing the question, and equating tobacco with nicotine. (Others have confused the issue by constantly referring to "additives").
Natural tobacco all on it's own contains many compounds other than nicotine, particularly MAOI's.
When tobacco is cured, the bacteria release large amounts of ammonia, which freebases the nicotine (I used to grow tobacco, and when it's curing properly, it absolutely reeks of ammonia!)

All these compounds are found even in 100% natural tobacco. With commercially-processed tobacco (including snus) these compounds are manipulated in order to get a consistent product (and for other reasons). Otherwise they couldn't get a Marlboro to taste like a marlboro, or make snus with uniform nic content and taste, etc. because the tobacco will naturally have fairly wide variations.

But forget about the additives, etc. Nicotine and tobacco are two different things. Tobacco is definitely addictive. That does not mean that nicotine is addictive, and studies done just with nicotine, among never-smokers have not shown any such addictive nature.

Thanks for the explanation, that makes a whole lot more sense to me.

 

[granolaboy]

I'll ask again... betting I get little to no response...

Will all the vapers who've never used other tobacco products that fit in this category PLEASE give an Aye.



Never smokers... never tobacco users. We have a bunch of ex tobacco users claiming that nicotine by itself gets everyone addicted yet we have a well described study of 400 people who used nicotine and NONE got addicted.

I'm an addict. I vape 50mg juice at 70 to 80 watts. (Calculates to ~90 watts before v - drop and mod resistance.)

BUT!!!!!

I was a heavy smoker. I can't count myself as a never smoker so I can't add to discrediting the findings.

Sent from my device.

My girlfriend would agree with this. She's not a smoker, never has been, but enjoys vaping. She enjoys the mild stimulating effect of the nicotine.

However, she can chain-vape all day and then put it down for days. She can take it or leave it. She doesn't find it addictive at all.

I can tell you first hand that smoking tobacco is far more addictive than just nicotine. There's a lot more in tobacco to get addicted to. When I switched from smoking to vaping, it wasn't painless. It was a slow process of easing off the tobacco onto the vape.

But let's be honest. Even tobacco isn't that physically addictive. It's PSYCHOLOGICALLY addictive as hell, but the physical symptoms of withdrawal are very mild, and not even close to life threatening.

I had a seizure once from drinking too much for too long then quitting suddenly. I was hospitalized and then spent the next week detoxing off alcohol with the use of benzodiazapines. THAT is what physical addiction is all about folks. Shakes...sweats...seizures...hallucinations...life threatening central nervous system dysfunction requiring a scheduled detox program with sedatives.

Not that I wish to downplay the pyschological addiction...my brain has been programmed to take regular "smoke" breaks at work. Without vaping, I don't know how my brain would be able to get on with the day. It's this effect on the brain that makes tobacco so addictive.

But I have to agree that we have to look at people who vape nicotine, but never held a tobacco smoking habit, to really assess how addictive nicotine is on its own compared to tobacco smoking.

 

[AndriaD]

My girlfriend would agree with this. She's not a smoker, never has been, but enjoys vaping. She enjoys the mild stimulating effect of the nicotine.

However, she can chain-vape all day and then put it down for days. She can take it or leave it. She doesn't find it addictive at all.

I can tell you first hand that smoking tobacco is far more addictive than just nicotine. There's a lot more in tobacco to get addicted to. When I switched from smoking to vaping, it wasn't painless. It was a slow process of easing off the tobacco onto the vape.

But let's be honest. Even tobacco isn't that physically addictive. It's PSYCHOLOGICALLY addictive as hell, but the physical symptoms of withdrawal are very mild, and not even close to life threatening.

I had a seizure once from drinking too much for too long then quitting suddenly. I was hospitalized and then spent the next week detoxing off alcohol with the use of benzodiazapines. THAT is what physical addiction is all about folks. Shakes...sweats...seizures...hallucinations...life threatening central nervous system dysfunction requiring a scheduled detox program with sedatives.

Not that I wish to downplay the pyschological addiction...my brain has been programmed to take regular "smoke" breaks at work. Without vaping, I don't know how my brain would be able to get on with the day. It's this effect on the brain that makes tobacco so addictive.

But I have to agree that we have to look at people who vape nicotine, but never held a tobacco smoking habit, to really assess how addictive nicotine is on its own compared to tobacco smoking.

I quit drinking cold-turkey, because I didn't have a choice in the matter -- anymore drinking would have sent me facedown to the toilet, and to my mind, that's a fate worse than DEATH, nevermind quitting drinking. I drank for 13 yrs, and the last 2 yrs of it was wild excess -- but I did manage the cold-turkey. My doctor had a cow, said, oh you could have had a stroke, or seizures, etc... To which I responded, seizures are less frightening than vomiting, any day of the week, and I DIDN'T have a stroke (would be difficult indeed with my low blood pressure) so why worry.

But yes, for most people, alcohol detox is a great deal more serious than tobacco withdrawal -- except for those people so attached to the MAOIs that tobacco withdrawal leaves them suicidal. I believe I'm one of those, though I never endured a cold-turkey tobacco withdrawal to that point -- except once when I was so sick with strep, I really didn't care if I smoked, I could barely tolerate continuing to LIVE -- by the time the strep was over, so was the acute phase of the tobacco withdrawal; it was only when I got to the dreaded 3-mo point that I simply couldn't deal with the deprivation another minute.

My husband, on the other hand, quit his "little cigars" without a pang -- he's just one of those infuriating people who can do that sort of thing. Everyone is different, everyone has a different potential for addiction, and no one reacts exactly the same to any withdrawal or detox. In fact, differences exist even in the same person -- my first time around in the spring, I barely had a craving at all; felt some emotional distress, depression, at the 3-wk and 3-mo points, but they were over before I could even get any WTA ordered -- but the 2nd time around was a horse of another color entirely, probably because of my intestinal problems with the appendix and its removal -- if it hadn't been for WTA then, no way could I have stayed smoke-free.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Agree with what was said earlier in this thread (I think by skoony) that the connotation of "addiction" feeds adversaries in a way that makes for lack of compassion and arrogant righteousness. I'm usually like, "why is my use of this (or even addition) of concern to you?"

Part of addiction, around half of it, is the reward aspect. If that wasn't there, and person still craved the substance or activity, it would be very visible problem. Add in the reward aspect, and it is challenging to throw stones when one is living in their own glass house. I've known / lived with workaholics. Yet, we live in a society whre hard work is celebrated or praised. And only if that person is in a relationship with another who is constantly wondering or saying, "when are you going to spend some time with me?" do we even consider it a problem. Clearly we reward workaholics, and justify the reward as good and necessary.

With nicotine the reward is any of the following: stress / anxiety reduction, focus, relaxation, and possibly more. A nic user that has used the substance for more than 7 days realizes it can help in many ways, but like everything else (that has ever existed in the physical world), it has side effects, or downsides. Yet, I would say it is very rare that those downsides impact anyone else, unless the nic user is deprived of any opportunity to use nic and is put in a situation that is not very relaxing and focus / concentration is deemed highly beneficial. Even then, if the nic user knows that it is a matter of minutes or at most a few hours, chances are they'll be fine in that situation without nic.

Though, I'm not aware of any other substance or activity (other than work) where the user is constantly engaged with the item. Other drugs have a 'crash' that prevents the user from partaking in those moments. That a nic user can go hours without partaking, kinda sorta shows that the addiction while thought to be high, is able to be done in moderation every single day that one considers themselves a user.

As one who has been able to achieve a consistent state of moderate smoking, while having history of being highly addicted as well as going cold turkey, I don't know if I can even call smoking 'highly addictive.' And with vaping, if all flavors were removed from all eLiquids, I don't think vaping would be anywhere near as popular or in mass use, as it is currently. Even as dual user, if I have choice between great wonderful smoke (that I know I'll enjoy) or new flavor of eLiquid that I'm wowed by, I will choose the flavored eLiquid virtually all the time. If choice was between unflavored or flavor I'm just okay with, I'll probably choose the eLiquid about 80 to 95% of the time.

From all I've seen on vaping forums, I think if vaping were literally regulated out of existence, that the vast majority of vapers (who are ex-smokers) would not go back to smoking. I know for sure some would, but I don't think most would. Fortunately, there will never be a way to prove this hypothesis one way or another, but I do think most vapers could cut back or cut down on nic, rather easily. But, I would wonder why? What problems is vaping causing in your life that the need to cut it out was so great?

 

[Foggyroomz]

Nicotine is a stimulant and anything that is a stimulant can become extremely addictive and the dependency of it will only get stronger the longer one is subjected to it. It has been said that every persons addiction to a depressant or stimulant substance is different and they have done studies showing that certain chemical and hormonal levels of a person can actually predispose that individual to addictions easier than the next. With that said let's face it the human body is a giant receptor for stimulation be it physical, auditory, visual, chemical, etc. So this means anything that is considered stimulating "exciting, invoking," is going to cause a sort of euphoria whether it be a good or bad experience will vary from person to person. . Guns-n-Roses song Mr.Brownstone explains it well "I used to do a little but the little wouldn't do it so the little got more and more" Nicotine is just as addictive as any designer drug we just don't see it that way because it doesn't carry the big taboo labeling that are associated with other addictive substances and we just shrug it off. Vaping with NIC juice helps us to get off the cigs but here is the thing just like any other seriously addictive substance you have to slowly wean the addict off the substance or you'll shock their system and as with any addiction there is physical and mental properties involved because all euphoria is both mentally and physically processed. Anyone who says nicotine isn't addictive surely didn't subject themselves to a lengthy dose of it. I spent 30 years pumping the Camel brand of nicotine into my body and this has been the first time I haven't gone back to smoking and I went from 24mg of nic in my juice 417 days ago to 4mg nic 2 months ago so I still use nic but I'm still smoke free and looking to be a "Naked Vaper" by the new year. My journey hasn't been an easy one but it has been a successful one. I consider the vape shop my "Nicotine-a-done Clinic" and ECF is my "Nicotine Anonymous Group" yup I'm a recovering nicotine addict but I'm not a smoker anymore so that's my take on it. Take it for what you will and you can call me crazy if you like but you know what I'm not in denial about the fact that I have been addicted to nicotine from smoking for 30 years and chewing Copenhagen long cut for 15 years. I'm 417 days without a smoke, I quit chewing 4 years ago and I have no thoughts or considerations of revisiting either habit ever again. Thanks for reading this.

 

[AndriaD]

I do think most vapers could cut back or cut down on nic, rather easily. But, I would wonder why? What problems is vaping causing in your life that the need to cut it out was so great?

I've wondered about this myself, nicotine is such a benign substance (in the quantity used by smokers/vapers). But then I see all these people deny their addiction so violently, I see that the problem is the word "addiction" itself. I've been an addict for most if not all my life, and the word has no particular power, to me -- it's merely a description. But many people apparently would rather be called a wife-beater or pedophile than an addict -- I've seen this at AA also, with the word "alcoholic" -- "oh no, I'm not an alcoholic (addict), I can quit anytime I like" -- the very essence of denial.

To these people, to be an "addict" or an "alcoholic" is the same as being weak, stupid, of no character whatever, rather than suffering a medical condition. And those who would derogate addicts for the simple fact of being addicts, that's what it means to them, too -- so those who feel this way about being called "addict" or "alcoholic" are buying wholesale into the derogatory connotations of those words, with no consideration of what they actually mean -- they are not only ALLOWING the derogatory connotation, they are giving it their approval, by their violent denial of being an addict, and by the wish and effort to remove nicotine, even when the nicotine is causing them no problem whatever -- they have this idea that using an 'addictive' drug makes them somehow less; that they're "at the mercy" of the drug, or "out of control," and they want to be "in control," even if that drug (nicotine) provides many valuable services.

In essence, they've been brainwashed by the ANTZ into believing that if they use nicotine, they're "bad" -- "out of control" -- an "addict" in the derogatory sense of that word, when that word has no derogatory meaning whatever, it's merely a description.

To which I say: HOGWASH.

Andria

 

[bluecat]

I've wondered about this myself, nicotine is such a benign substance (in the quantity used by smokers/vapers). But then I see all these people deny their addiction so violently, I see that the problem is the word "addiction" itself. I've been an addict for most if not all my life, and the word has no particular power, to me -- it's merely a description. But many people apparently would rather be called a wife-beater or pedophile than an addict -- I've seen this at AA also, with the word "alcoholic" -- "oh no, I'm not an alcoholic (addict), I can quit anytime I like" -- the very essence of denial.

To these people, to be an "addict" or an "alcoholic" is the same as being weak, stupid, of no character whatever, rather than suffering a medical condition. And those who would derogate addicts for the simple fact of being addicts, that's what it means to them, too -- so those who feel this way about being called "addict" or "alcoholic" are buying wholesale into the derogatory connotations of those words, with no consideration of what they actually mean -- they are not only ALLOWING the derogatory connotation, they are giving it their approval, by their violent denial of being an addict, and by the wish and effort to remove nicotine, even when the nicotine is causing them no problem whatever -- they have this idea that using an 'addictive' drug makes them somehow less; that they're "at the mercy" of the drug, or "out of control," and they want to be "in control," even if that drug (nicotine) provides many valuable services.

In essence, they've been brainwashed by the ANTZ into believing that if they use nicotine, they're "bad" -- "out of control" -- an "addict" in the derogatory sense of that word, when that word has no derogatory meaning whatever, it's merely a description.

To which I say: HOGWASH.

Andria

For me as an ex smoker of 30 year habit (rounded one way or the other) I would get smoking withdrawal when trying to quit smoking. That edginess that only a cigarette can relieve. After vaping 2+ years.. that edginess isn't there. It is a faint feeling of yeah I need something. I feel I could just stop and be fine. Would I go back? Maybe.. Still in my mind I enjoyed smoking. Then I say why? I smoked 30 years why force myself to quit vaping after 2 years. If this is the only vice I have... I am glad for it. By the way.. I thought I would never ever give up cigars... it happened though.

I go through a work day (8-12 hrs) without a vape. I am sure I could. I do get a little edgy though.

 

[firerat]

From all I've seen on vaping forums, I think if vaping were literally regulated out of existence, that the vast majority of vapers (who are ex-smokers) would not go back to smoking.

I can only speak for me obviously, but I likely would go back to smoking. I'm constantly surrounded by smokers. I hope I wrong though.

I know for sure some would, but I don't think most would. Fortunately, there will never be a way to prove this hypothesis one way or another, but I do think most vapers could cut back or cut down on nic, rather easily. But, I would wonder why? What problems is vaping causing in your life that the need to cut it out was so great?

For me personally, the nic (anything over like 8mg) gave me severe headaches. Aside from that, no real reason.

 

[tchavei]

Nicotine has some curious effects. The first time I quit cigs and started to vape (almost 5 years ago, in the age where devices had limited output capabilities), I didn't notice anything special but after a few weeks, my wife suddently asked: what's wrong with you? You seem to be 'slow' as if you're having lags when your doing something or keeping a conversation.

I found the comment a bit odd because I couldn't feel anything different but it later was confirmed by my work colleagues.
A couple of years later, when I returned to smoking, I got precise the opposite comments like "are you suddently on steroids or something?".

Nicotine does definitely speed up your reaction time and concentration.

Curiously, the second time I quit smoking, nobody has noticed an increase in response time which I can only justify as I'm using better delivery devices than I used to and my nic levels are probably the same as when I was smoking.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my GT-I9195 through Tapatalk

 

[Foggyroomz]

Andria that was very well put I believe that being aware that you are addicted means that you recognize you weren't in as much control as you thought and that you now are ready to treat and recover from your addiction. Denial of your addiction makes you a prisoner to the addiction and it is like openly admitting that you are defeated by it. Until vaping I think that was almost how all us smokers were though, we felt helpless, no matter what we tried it seemed nothing worked we were prisoners to 'Big Tobacco" well we just didn't have something this personally customizable before and now the success rate for quitting is so much greater because we regulate how much for how long and can personalize the experience to meet just what we want low watt, high watt, tanks, cartos, drippers, mech mod, regulated mod or home built mod, we are free to make it our own and that just propels us towards our success.

 

[Tonythefiddler]

Honestly starting to wonder if BT doesn't send reps here to say "oh analogs aren't that bad" and get it in people's heads so they switch back.. I thought it was about harm reduction and a safer alternative not defending cancer sticks at every opportunity.

 

[AndriaD]

For me as an ex smoker of 30 year habit (rounded one way or the other) I would get smoking withdrawal when trying to quit smoking. That edginess that only a cigarette can relieve. After vaping 2+ years.. that edginess isn't there. It is a faint feeling of yeah I need something. I feel I could just stop and be fine. Would I go back? Maybe.. Still in my mind I enjoyed smoking. Then I say why? I smoked 30 years why force myself to quit vaping after 2 years. If this is the only vice I have... I am glad for it. By the way.. I thought I would never ever give up cigars... it happened though.

I go through a work day (8-12 hrs) without a vape. I am sure I could. I do get a little edgy though.

I can't get thru a TV show without a vape, I can't even imagine going many hours without, especially in a stressful situation like work. So, as much as I was starting to really hate smoking, as much as I'm loving being a non-smoker... if everything vape-related disappeared/was banned tomorrow, I'd say it's about a 99.99% probability that I would return to smoking. Would I want to? Not at all. But I know my own limitations, at this stage of my life, and going without nicotine and the other tobacco alkaloids is just not possible.

Andria

 

[Foggyroomz]

That is why when people quit smoking they tend to gain weight it isn't because they eat any more it is merely because they have eliminated a stimulant from their system and that in turn slows things down including metabolism.